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Do you consider UKIP good or bad?

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Original post by geokinkladze
You are confusing climate change (which UKIP do accept) with man-made global warming (which UKIP believes is overstated).

I would be happy for my children to be taught in school that Evolution caused by Natural selection is a fact.

I wouldn't be happy for them to be taught that our species is solely responsible for global warming unless there was also a counter view that climate change happens whether we like it or not.


Climate change has become to mean man made global warming, everyone accepts that their are natural cycles, UKIP's position is that man has nothing to do with it.
Original post by lerjj
Well, seeing as everyone earning less than the required 36k to get into the 40% tax bracket would be being charged 31% rather than 20% I think it stands on its own. The tax free bracket is already being moved to 10,000 so the extra 3.5k of tex-free won't make up paying 50% more income tax on the next 13k. Anyone earning more than 20k therefore will be subject to increased taxes. Cba to work out the maximum earnings at which you're still losing money but I'd estimate ~40k

Tl;dr with current figure, the government would lose money, as would everyone between 20-40k pa earnings. The money is going to rich people who are having their 45% bracket reduced down to only 31%. I don't have figures for national insurance. Seeing as 31% is probably no longer accurate, I think we'll wait for UKIP to finally publish a costed manfesto- which they refuse to do atm.


For those under the current 40% tax threshold, Ukip;s tax policy will essentially have them pay the same since they'll abolish NI. For those above the 40% tax threshold, they'll get an 11% tax cut.

Original post by Suntzu
Membership of the European Union does not bring in any additional trade to the UK economy; being part of the single market does, which is why we should leave and adopt a free trade agreement like Switzerland. We would then be able to have trade agreements with other countries such as India and the USA, which we currently cannot do due to the EU's protectionist and isolationist policies. Also I am not advocating UKIP's spending plans, just withdrawal of the European Union.


The EU is already creating trade agreements with the USA (and Canada).
Original post by lerjj
file:///C:/Users/Jacob/Downloads/RP10-62.pdf

First page, 6.1% of primary legislation, and 14.4% of legislation.

Got to get back to explaining how climate change works to the guy who posted a temperature graph for Europe as evidence that the Earth is not cooling...

So you're saying a video of the EU commissioner saying most national laws are made from the EU is..... not true?
Original post by hexagonalRod
You're just moaning rather than providing me with reasoning for your opinions.

Prisoners being able to vote or not isn't a vital issue in the UK atm. And no, Conservative.

Reasons? The EU was supposed to be a trade union, not a political union.

North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA):

- Doesn't require the US to pay £55 million a day
- Doesn't allow ANY Mexican to emigrate to the US to live....

So why does the EU make us pay money and allow any dirt-poor European to live in the UK?
Original post by lerjj
And I found this:
http://www.skepticalscience.com/medieval-warm-period.htm

That is not a global temperature graph and is therefore irrelevant to global warming.

My point is google will serve-up anything if you look hard enough...
Original post by The Socktor
Just because it has happened before doesn't mean it isn't happening now nor that we don't have a hand in it.

Right- so I am asking you how do you know we have a hand in it, if its happened before?

That's like cars slipping along a stretch of road for the last 20 years, they re-surface the road, another car slips and then suddenly the people who re-surfaced the road are blamed....
Original post by DaveSmith99
Climate change has become to mean man made global warming


Only in the minds of the uneducated. If it were true, looking at climate change over the last 10,000 years is basically attributing a lot of change to a population of between 5m and 27m people who basically burn't wood.

Nonsense.
Original post by Rakas21
The EU is already creating trade agreements with the USA (and Canada).


Are you aware of the trade agreements we had to tear up 40 years ago in order to join? I'm pretty sure if we ran our own affairs we would have sorted them out a lot quicker than that.
Original post by geokinkladze
Only in the minds of the uneducated. If it were true, looking at climate change over the last 10,000 years is basically attributing a lot of change to a population of between 5m and 27m people who basically burn't wood.

Nonsense.


I can't even figure out what confused point you're trying to make here.
Original post by DaveSmith99
UKIP's position is that man has nothing to do with it.


So why do they advocate building nuclear power plants IN ORDER TO REDUCE CO2 EMMISIONS if they feel we have NOTHING to do with it. They feel our species influence is OVERSTATED, not zero.
Original post by geokinkladze
Are you aware of the trade agreements we had to tear up 40 years ago in order to join? I'm pretty sure if we ran our own affairs we would have sorted them out a lot quicker than that.


We never had that many back then although i'm aware that we did have an agreement regarding dual nationality or something with Australia at one point.

I'm not saying we can't, i believe that we'll be fine whether we are in or out of the EU and there are even some reasons which tempt me to leave but right now the debate on both sides is abysmal. You have those who want to be 'In' suggesting that armageddon will follow if we leave and you have those who want to be 'out' saying that not a single consequence will arise if we leave. As such i'm forced to look at the facts myself and conclude that both sides are overstating the effects of leaving or staying and as such i'm far from convinced that we need to leave.
Reply 451
Original post by billydisco
So you're saying a video of the EU commissioner saying most national laws are made from the EU is..... not true?


Yes, she has stated that she was referring to EU laws, 75-80% of which are made by the EP. She was answering off the cuff, without figures at hand and didn't answer the correct question.

Surely, as a UKIP supporter, you support the possibility that EU reps make mistakes?
Original post by geokinkladze
So why do they advocate building nuclear power plants IN ORDER TO REDUCE CO2 EMMISIONS if they feel we have NOTHING to do with it. They feel our species influence is OVERSTATED, not zero.


There is simply no need to appeal to CO2 as an explanation for natural variation.


They don't favour nuclear IN ORDER TO REDUCE C02 EMISSIONS. They favour nuclear because nuclear is a good source of energy regardless of emissions.
Reply 453
Original post by geokinkladze
I'm going to stop you there.. short wavelength light emits more heat, therefore it is inaccurate to say the light is short wavelength because of it's high temperature. It is more the other way around, it emits high temperature because of it's short wavelength. That much at least I do know.



This bit I agree with, in fact it is the reason I said I accept that CO2 is a greenhouse gas to some extent. The extent should be verifiable in the medium to long term, simply measure IF light at low altitude levels over time, if the heat is being caused by CO2 trapping IF light we should be able to detect this.


Oh dear. Do you take physics? If so you need serious help for your exams...

IF waves are often referred to as 'heat' energy as most hot bodies emit light in the IF range. As they get hotter the wavelength becomes shorter. So correcting me on my subject which you clearly don't take is going to be a quick route to making a fool of yourself.

You accept CO2 to be a greenhouse gas. I'm not really sure what your problem with AGW is tbh then. Even if it happened in the past ~1000 times slower than currently, the fact that we're pumping 31,000,000,000,000 kilgrams of the stuff out per year would suggest that we might cause a problem in the future.

CO2 was proven to act as a greenhouse gas a very long time ago (150 years? CBA to check the fact, but its hardly relevant). In the short term we have experienced: increased CO2 levels, and increased low altitude temperatures. This is what you claim you want evidence of, despite it already having happened. Australia has added new colours to weather maps...
Reply 454
Original post by Captain Haddock
That bastard is 1.2 thousand pages long. Why am I sceptical? Besides, just to humour you I decided to check out the introduction. The reality of man-made climate change is re-affirmed in the first bloody paragraph.


Not only that, the first graph I posted comes from that report... and shows global warming accelerating up to 2005, where it stopped (the graph, not AGW). It also could quite clearly show a warming tend over the last 75 years, which noone has denied on this thread. So presumably they agree with global warming...
Original post by DaveSmith99
I can't even figure out what confused point you're trying to make here.


Only confusing if you confuse "climate change" with "man made climate change".

Data looking at "climate change" over the past 10,00 years would be pretty odd if the phrase "climate change" was replaced with "man made climate change".

Hopefully, that explains your confusion and the reason why the two should be kept separate.
Original post by billydisco
Reasons? The EU was supposed to be a trade union, not a political union.

North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA):

- Doesn't require the US to pay £55 million a day- Clearly avoiding all the benefits we get (which are worth more) from this membership.
- Doesn't allow ANY Mexican to emigrate to the US to live.... We aren't capitalists like Americans. Just because the US is hostile towards other countries, doesn't mean we should too. In fact, most of the workers we get are skilled anyway- you just don't get to see them because they are working in offices rather than outside. And the ones you see, get you angry because, being a UKIP supporter, you are probably low-tempered.

So why does the EU make us pay money and allow any dirt-poor European to live in the UK?

comments in quote
Again, you're just stating facts.

'dirt-poor' European? Look at the arrogance you've got. This is common across all of UKIP supporters, I don't think this is the way forward. The US isn't exactly a prime example for us to follow, we're a much older civilisation, we are capable of identifying human rights and working together.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 457
Original post by Rakas21
We never had that many back then although i'm aware that we did have an agreement regarding dual nationality or something with Australia at one point.

I'm not saying we can't, i believe that we'll be fine whether we are in or out of the EU and there are even some reasons which tempt me to leave but right now the debate on both sides is abysmal. You have those who want to be 'In' suggesting that armageddon will follow if we leave and you have those who want to be 'out' saying that not a single consequence will arise if we leave. As such i'm forced to look at the facts myself and conclude that both sides are overstating the effects of leaving or staying and as such i'm far from convinced that we need to leave.


The total cost in membership for our entire being in the EU would not make up the current deficit that Britain has, it's something like £20bn off, and that's assuming we wouldn't have lost any trade at all.

UKIP seem to think leaving the EU is a hail-mary save to our economic problems. It doesn't fix anything, it gives us a tiny amount more money to try to fix some stuff, but not nearly enough.

Apparently they no longer support abolishing NI, or the flat rate of tax... so I'll drop that argument. However I would suggest that given they've changed their minds on every major issue since 2010, they wouldn't be very efficient or effective in government.
Original post by lerjj
Yes, she has stated that she was referring to EU laws, 75-80% of which are made by the EP.


No she had previously referred to the EU as being responsible for 75% of Swedish laws. It was a statement she had previously made to justify EU membership to Swedes.

During a different debate, when asked if Sweden was a special case, she explained it applied to all EU nations. It certainly wasn't off the cuff as she had already made the point previously and had an opportunity to clarify her earlier statement if it wasn't what she meant.
Original post by geokinkladze
Only confusing if you confuse "climate change" with "man made climate change".

Data looking at "climate change" over the past 10,00 years would be pretty odd if the phrase "climate change" was replaced with "man made climate change".

Hopefully, that explains your confusion and the reason why the two should be kept separate.


There is no confusion, just you trying to create confusion by being pedantic. The 'climate change debate' is not a debate between people who think the earths climate has remained perfectly level and stable for 10,000 years and people who don't, no one thinks or is claiming that.

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