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Scottish fees are illegal for Northern Irish Students!
I believe Scotland's decision to charge Irish citizens residing within Northern Ireland a breech of the Belfast Agreement and the EU Charter of Fundamental rights.
I have been applying to University in Scotland and will be attending come September. I have considered myself an Irish citizen since birth and have been assessed as having to pay the UK fee when it comes to studying in Scotland rather than an Irish (EU) Citizen. This is because my ordinary address is in Co.Down.
I believe these fees to be discriminatory but because of a clause in the UK Law Equality Act 2010 means Scotland can charge people from the UK unlawfully. In regards to Discrimination (Covered in article 14) schedule 23 has a general exception that states it is not unlawful to discriminate because of anyone’s Place of ordinary residence and The length of time any individual has been present or resident in or outside the United Kingdom or an area within it.
Now so it seems like Scotland can get a way with charging fees and I have no case for discrimination against me due to schedule 23.
However. I class my self as an Irish Citizen. In a nutshell the Belfast agreement should counter this argument. Article 1 (vi) says the two governments recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.
So basically the law backs up I have the right to be an Irish citizen. This is where I can successfully claim discrimination on grounds of race/nationality.
Now to back up my case as discrimination against me as an Irish Citizen we look at the Charter of Fundamental rights of the European union. I cover a few articles in here so I will list them.
Article 14 (1) Everyone has the right to education and to have access to vocational and continuing training.
Article 21 (1) Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.
Article 45 (1) Every citizen of the Union has the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States.
Now I am classed as an Irish Citizen and under the EU law that gives me the right to reside freely in Northern Ireland, with out discrimination as set out in Article 45 and 21. Article 14 just backs up the fact this argument is centred around education.
Is this not a clear breach then of the EU charter and the good Friday agreement?
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Original post by zecbmo
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I believe Scotland's decision to charge Irish citizens residing within Northern Ireland a breech of the Belfast Agreement and the EU Charter of Fundamental rights.
]
No it's not. Fee status is based on residence, not nationality.
If a Scottish born student has been ordinarily resident in England for the last five years, they will not be entitled to free fees. Similarly, a British born person who has been living in a non-EU country for the last five years will likely be classed as an international student. Therefore someone ordinarily resident in Northern Ireland, regardless of their nationality, is not entitled to the same financial support as one resident in Scotland.
The Belfast Agreement is irrelevant. You are still free to consider yourself Irish or British, and to get Irish citizenship.
Article 14 (1) Everyone has the right to education and to have access to vocational and continuing training.
You have likely received free education up to the age of 18. No one is preventing you from accessing university.
Article 21 (1) Any discrimination based on any ground such as sex, race, colour, ethnic or social origin, genetic features, language, religion or belief, political or any other opinion, membership of a national minority, property, birth, disability, age or sexual orientation shall be prohibited.
No one is discriminating against you based on one of these protected characteristics. Which characteristic applies and in what way are you being discriminated.
Article 45 (1) Every citizen of the Union has the right to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States.
And you are free to do this. Again, how is this relevant?
Original post by River85
No it's not. Fee status is based on residence, not nationality.
If a Scottish born student has been ordinarily resident in England for the last five years, they will not be entitled to free fees. Similarly, a British born person who has been living in a non-EU country for the last five years will likely be classed as an international student. Therefore someone ordinarily resident in Northern Ireland, regardless of their nationality, is not entitled to the same financial support as one resident in Scotland.
The Belfast Agreement is irrelevant. You are still free to consider yourself Irish or British, and to get Irish citizenship.
You have likely received free education up to the age of 18. No one is preventing you from accessing university.
No one is discriminating against you based on one of these protected characteristics. Which characteristic applies and in what way are you being discriminated.
And you are free to do this. Again, how is this relevant?
If a Scottish born student has been ordinarily resident in England for the last five years, they will not be entitled to free fees. Similarly, a British born person who has been living in a non-EU country for the last five years will likely be classed as an international student. Therefore someone ordinarily resident in Northern Ireland, regardless of their nationality, is not entitled to the same financial support as one resident in Scotland.
The Belfast Agreement is irrelevant. You are still free to consider yourself Irish or British, and to get Irish citizenship.
You have likely received free education up to the age of 18. No one is preventing you from accessing university.
No one is discriminating against you based on one of these protected characteristics. Which characteristic applies and in what way are you being discriminated.
And you are free to do this. Again, how is this relevant?
You haven't got his point. Scotland treats dual EU/UK nationals who have only lived in RUK as though they were not EU nationals.
That is consistent with what happens in other areas of law. You only get the benefits of EU status if you have exercised EU rights.
However, there is nothing special about the Irish except that there are a lot of dual nationals in Northern Ireland because everyone born in Northern Ireland is entitled to Irish nationality and most are also entitled to British nationality.
There is a very simple answer to anyone with dual nationality who doesn't want to take the burdens of being British. From age 18 they can renounce British nationality.
(edited 9 years ago)
You're in a part of the UK and member states are allowed to discriminate on admissions within the state, I don't see the problem?
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Original post by Atsushi
Can someone just tell me what exactly "ordinarily resident" mean.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2007/153/schedule/2/made
Original post by River85
No it's not. Fee status is based on residence, not nationality.
If a Scottish born student has been ordinarily resident in England for the last five years, they will not be entitled to free fees. Similarly, a British born person who has been living in a non-EU country for the last five years will likely be classed as an international student. Therefore someone ordinarily resident in Northern Ireland, regardless of their nationality, is not entitled to the same financial support as one resident in Scotland.
The Belfast Agreement is irrelevant. You are still free to consider yourself Irish or British, and to get Irish citizenship.
You have likely received free education up to the age of 18. No one is preventing you from accessing university.
No one is discriminating against you based on one of these protected characteristics. Which characteristic applies and in what way are you being discriminated.
And you are free to do this. Again, how is this relevant?
If a Scottish born student has been ordinarily resident in England for the last five years, they will not be entitled to free fees. Similarly, a British born person who has been living in a non-EU country for the last five years will likely be classed as an international student. Therefore someone ordinarily resident in Northern Ireland, regardless of their nationality, is not entitled to the same financial support as one resident in Scotland.
The Belfast Agreement is irrelevant. You are still free to consider yourself Irish or British, and to get Irish citizenship.
You have likely received free education up to the age of 18. No one is preventing you from accessing university.
No one is discriminating against you based on one of these protected characteristics. Which characteristic applies and in what way are you being discriminated.
And you are free to do this. Again, how is this relevant?
Arguably, they are discriminating against my right to reside freely as an Irish (Eu) citizen in northern Ireland.
Original post by zecbmo
Arguably, they are discriminating against my right to reside freely as an Irish (Eu) citizen in northern Ireland.
You don't reside in Northern Ireland as an Irish citizen. You reside in Northern Ireland as a British citizen. As I said, if you are 18, you have the opportunity of renouncing your British citizenship.
Think on this. Each EU state retains the right to deport and exclude from re-entry EU citizens who are not its own nationals on the grounds of public security (the current provisions are Articles 27 & 28 of Directive 2004/58/EC but this right goes back to the earliest days of the Common Market).
If Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams resided in Northern Ireland by virtue of their Irish citizenship, the British government would at some point in the last 40 years have said that their presence in the UK was not conducive to public security and tipped them over the border. The irony is the British government can't do this because they are Brits living in the UK and one cannot deport one's own nationals. Of course they know this, which is why at no point have any Republicans renounced their British citizenship.
Original post by Atsushi
Can someone just tell me what exactly "ordinarily resident" mean.
The country you normally live in i.e. where your home address is. That matters the most when it comes to student finance.
Original post by zecbmo
Arguably, they are discriminating against my right to reside freely as an Irish (Eu) citizen in northern Ireland.
No because your British as well. Anyway student finance always looks at where you lived, not your nationality. And if you were regarded as an EU student you would then have to find the £££ for living costs yourself so you you wouldn't be winning much.
Original post by jelly1000
The country you normally live in i.e. where your home address is. That matters the most when it comes to student finance.
So what if I only lived in England for doing my GCSEs and A levels and every holiday I went home to another country.
Original post by Atsushi
So what if I only lived in England for doing my GCSEs and A levels and every holiday I went home to another country.
In that case you'd be ordinarily resident in the other country- that is where your main address would be. Coming here for educational purposes doesn't count because you aren't paying taxes towards the system.
Original post by Atsushi
So what if I only lived in England for doing my GCSEs and A levels and every holiday I went home to another country.
If you have lived in England solely for the purpose of education, then you are not considered to have been "ordinarily resident" and you will be considered an EU or International student by SF, depending on your home country.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by jelly1000
In that case you'd be ordinarily resident in the other country- that is where your main address would be. Coming here for educational purposes doesn't count because you aren't paying taxes towards the system.
Is that the case even though I might spend most of my time in here because of school but less time in the other country.
Original post by Atsushi
Is that the case even though I might spend most of my time in here because of school but less time in the other country.
Yes.
Residence in England purely for the purpose of education, is a specifically stated exclusion in SFE's funding provision.
Original post by nulli tertius
If Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams resided in Northern Ireland by virtue of their Irish citizenship, the British government would at some point in the last 40 years have said that their presence in the UK was not conducive to public security and tipped them over the border.
If Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams resided in Northern Ireland by virtue of their Irish citizenship, the British government would at some point in the last 40 years have said that their presence in the UK was not conducive to public security and tipped them over the border.
Pretty sure Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness would not agree with you there and I have already quoted the Belfast agreement, which recognises the nationality of the Irish in Northern Ireland.
Original post by jelly1000
No because your British as well. Anyway student finance always looks at where you lived, not your nationality. And if you were regarded as an EU student you would then have to find the £££ for living costs yourself so you you wouldn't be winning much.
I have to pay the costs myself anyways so you can see why the Scottish fees would be much preferred.
Original post by zecbmo
Pretty sure Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness would not agree with you there and I have already quoted the Belfast agreement, which recognises the nationality of the Irish in Northern Ireland.
In the days when they were banned from the mainland and banned from the TV and radio, you really believe anyone in the UK government would have given a monkey's for what they thought. If they could have been deported, they would have been deported.
What the Belfast Agreement says is:-
recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves
and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly
confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both
Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of
Northern Ireland.
and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly
confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both
Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of
Northern Ireland.
In other words (and these are bilateral rights irrespective of whether the UK or Ireland remain in the EU):-
if you choose Irish nationality alone, you have the right to live in NI
if you choose British nationality alone, you have the right to live in NI even if at some point in the future the people of NI vote to unite with ROI
if you choose joint British/Irish nationality you have the right to live in NI
What it doesn't say is that you can have one status, that of joint British/Irish nationality, but have the rights accorded to someone of different status e.g. sole Irish nationality. Accordingly if a joint UK/Irish national is arrested he can't ask to see the Irish consul (even if he was a losing candidate for President) and he can't have free education in Scotland.
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