Do you consider UKIP good or bad?
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Original post by geokinkladze
My son is studying maths GCSE, that is why I stumbled over to this forum initially. Are you proposing some kind of restriction? Does an open door policy only extend to immigration?
No, I just wondered why you felt the need to be here to make such condenscending remarks.
Original post by Captain Haddock
this mythical minimum wage related unemployment has never materialised, anywhere, ever.
How do you know? Is there some guy with a magical calculator that works out all the changes in employment and shows "nil" for that caused by price rises. If a price rise doesn't cause a drop in demand then the whole basis of economics is flawed.
The argument therefore is whether the drop in demand for labour (rising unemployment) is worth it.
Original post by RumpeIstiltskin
Maybe, but understanding what you mean from a sentence that makes no sense is.
Original post by geokinkladze
There's only so much dumbing down one can subject oneself to dear boy. 
Original post by RumpeIstiltskin
No, I just wondered why you felt the need to be here to make such condenscending remarks.
At least I winked.. you clearly did not. Glass houses and all.
I won't call UKIP racist but anti-EU, their immigration policies do benefit some ethnic minority. For example, after stopping other EU citizen entering UK without limitation, high skilled labour from the rest of the commonwealth like Canada, Singapore and India may be easier to come to the UK. So it's unfair to call them racist despite the fact that I don't like a lot of their policies.
Original post by geokinkladze
How do you know? Is there some guy with a magical calculator that works out all the changes in employment and shows "nil" for that caused by price rises. If a price rise doesn't cause a drop in demand then the whole basis of economics is flawed.
The argument therefore is whether the drop in demand for labour (rising unemployment) is worth it.
The argument therefore is whether the drop in demand for labour (rising unemployment) is worth it.
Well yeah, pretty much. They're called researchers. They make studies. Like this one, and this one, and this one
Believe it or not reality is not derived from neo-liberal economic textbooks.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Captain Haddock
There's plenty of "researchers" argue both sides.. the positive sides and negative sides displayed in both sides of the argument indicate the existence of subjective opinion.
No one could seriously argue there is no effect.. one of those sources you quote states "There is little or no evidence of any employment effects" (notice they don't explicitly state there is no evidence just little or no evidence). They then claim as one of the reasons why it doesn't affect employment is that it leads to "an increase in the relative price of minimum wage-produced consumer services". So they acknowledge the price of the service made by the labour rises and don't acknowledge fewer will be sold as a result. Now there is a researcher who doesn't understand what price rises do to demand. I guess they are still waiting on that letter from the Royal Swedish Academy.
Another source you quote argues that "research that suggests a negative labor market effect shows only a minimal impact that is more than offset by the higher wage levels." As I said the argument isn't whether employment is affected but whether you think it is worth it. All the sources you cite argue that it is worth it. What they don't do, as I originally stated is
me
works out all the changes in employment and shows "nil" for that caused by price rises
I'm all ears if someone can state explicitly in economic terms the argument that a price rise is not accompanied by a fall in demand AND state why it doesn't apply to any other good/service. But then if you could do that you would also need to think about your Nobel acceptance speech.
To give an opinion on UKIP i feel that i must give some general background information about myself so people understand where i'm coming from (as boring as it may be). To keep it short, I'm a 17 year old white british male who goes to a very culturally diverse sixth form. I'm not going to lie, i am very new to politics but i have become so fascinated by it i would definitely say i have more of a clue than the majority of my family and peers.
To myself, it seems UKIP has two main selling points to their followers; Immigration and the EU, both of which dont seem pleasant to non British folk. Due to this UKIP and its supporters are labelled racist. If you agree with this you are a closed and simple minded fool. I'm not here to argue that UKIP is the saviour of politics (far from it) but their is a difference between a supporter voting for UKIP's policies and a supporter voting for UKIP's ideology.
As mentioned i go to a culturally diverse sixth form, this was also the case at my high school, and i have friends who are white, black, asian, buddhist, muslim, christian, catholic etc. but i still agree that their needs to be a stricter immigration policy. Ideally i would enforce a points based immigration policy like Australia's.
Before i rant on about my views ill get back to the forums point. UKIP have been great for politics. How many of your friends have taken even a slight increase in interest in politics due to the media buzz around UKIP? i know a lot of my friends have. I agree that voting UKIP is not the solution to the farce that is politics in England, but to label the party racist, sexist and homophobic and its supporters to makes you just as bad as them because you are labelling and stereotyping a group of people; the exact thing many people dislike UKIP for.
I think the reason their is a buzz around UKIP is because people look at them and listen to what they say and they think "this sounds more genuine than what the $!#% that the main parties have been saying for years".
Like i said, im new to politics, yet i cant be the only one who is sick of politicians dodging important questions and just quoting their manifestos then quoting opposing parties manifestos to slag them off. ITS NOT REAL. it doesnt feel human and it doesnt speak to me one tiny bit.
This is why i believe UKIP is good for politics, but shouldn't even be considered a viable option as the party in power.
(who would i vote for i hear you cry! none of them, until i see a genuine man or woman speaking to me as a person about their beliefs which hopefully would be similar to mine, and not just quoting their manifestos again and again, i will steer clear of the voting booths.)
To myself, it seems UKIP has two main selling points to their followers; Immigration and the EU, both of which dont seem pleasant to non British folk. Due to this UKIP and its supporters are labelled racist. If you agree with this you are a closed and simple minded fool. I'm not here to argue that UKIP is the saviour of politics (far from it) but their is a difference between a supporter voting for UKIP's policies and a supporter voting for UKIP's ideology.
As mentioned i go to a culturally diverse sixth form, this was also the case at my high school, and i have friends who are white, black, asian, buddhist, muslim, christian, catholic etc. but i still agree that their needs to be a stricter immigration policy. Ideally i would enforce a points based immigration policy like Australia's.
Before i rant on about my views ill get back to the forums point. UKIP have been great for politics. How many of your friends have taken even a slight increase in interest in politics due to the media buzz around UKIP? i know a lot of my friends have. I agree that voting UKIP is not the solution to the farce that is politics in England, but to label the party racist, sexist and homophobic and its supporters to makes you just as bad as them because you are labelling and stereotyping a group of people; the exact thing many people dislike UKIP for.
I think the reason their is a buzz around UKIP is because people look at them and listen to what they say and they think "this sounds more genuine than what the $!#% that the main parties have been saying for years".
Like i said, im new to politics, yet i cant be the only one who is sick of politicians dodging important questions and just quoting their manifestos then quoting opposing parties manifestos to slag them off. ITS NOT REAL. it doesnt feel human and it doesnt speak to me one tiny bit.
This is why i believe UKIP is good for politics, but shouldn't even be considered a viable option as the party in power.
(who would i vote for i hear you cry! none of them, until i see a genuine man or woman speaking to me as a person about their beliefs which hopefully would be similar to mine, and not just quoting their manifestos again and again, i will steer clear of the voting booths.)
Original post by anonstudent2107
To give an opinion on UKIP i feel that i must give some general background information about myself so people understand where i'm coming from (as boring as it may be). To keep it short, I'm a 17 year old white british male who goes to a very culturally diverse sixth form. I'm not going to lie, i am very new to politics but i have become so fascinated by it i would definitely say i have more of a clue than the majority of my family and peers.
To myself, it seems UKIP has two main selling points to their followers; Immigration and the EU, both of which dont seem pleasant to non British folk. Due to this UKIP and its supporters are labelled racist. If you agree with this you are a closed and simple minded fool. I'm not here to argue that UKIP is the saviour of politics (far from it) but their is a difference between a supporter voting for UKIP's policies and a supporter voting for UKIP's ideology.
As mentioned i go to a culturally diverse sixth form, this was also the case at my high school, and i have friends who are white, black, asian, buddhist, muslim, christian, catholic etc. but i still agree that their needs to be a stricter immigration policy. Ideally i would enforce a points based immigration policy like Australia's.
Before i rant on about my views ill get back to the forums point. UKIP have been great for politics. How many of your friends have taken even a slight increase in interest in politics due to the media buzz around UKIP? i know a lot of my friends have. I agree that voting UKIP is not the solution to the farce that is politics in England, but to label the party racist, sexist and homophobic and its supporters to makes you just as bad as them because you are labelling and stereotyping a group of people; the exact thing many people dislike UKIP for.
I think the reason their is a buzz around UKIP is because people look at them and listen to what they say and they think "this sounds more genuine than what the $!#% that the main parties have been saying for years".
Like i said, im new to politics, yet i cant be the only one who is sick of politicians dodging important questions and just quoting their manifestos then quoting opposing parties manifestos to slag them off. ITS NOT REAL. it doesnt feel human and it doesnt speak to me one tiny bit.
This is why i believe UKIP is good for politics, but shouldn't even be considered a viable option as the party in power.
(who would i vote for i hear you cry! none of them, until i see a genuine man or woman speaking to me as a person about their beliefs which hopefully would be similar to mine, and not just quoting their manifestos again and again, i will steer clear of the voting booths.)
To myself, it seems UKIP has two main selling points to their followers; Immigration and the EU, both of which dont seem pleasant to non British folk. Due to this UKIP and its supporters are labelled racist. If you agree with this you are a closed and simple minded fool. I'm not here to argue that UKIP is the saviour of politics (far from it) but their is a difference between a supporter voting for UKIP's policies and a supporter voting for UKIP's ideology.
As mentioned i go to a culturally diverse sixth form, this was also the case at my high school, and i have friends who are white, black, asian, buddhist, muslim, christian, catholic etc. but i still agree that their needs to be a stricter immigration policy. Ideally i would enforce a points based immigration policy like Australia's.
Before i rant on about my views ill get back to the forums point. UKIP have been great for politics. How many of your friends have taken even a slight increase in interest in politics due to the media buzz around UKIP? i know a lot of my friends have. I agree that voting UKIP is not the solution to the farce that is politics in England, but to label the party racist, sexist and homophobic and its supporters to makes you just as bad as them because you are labelling and stereotyping a group of people; the exact thing many people dislike UKIP for.
I think the reason their is a buzz around UKIP is because people look at them and listen to what they say and they think "this sounds more genuine than what the $!#% that the main parties have been saying for years".
Like i said, im new to politics, yet i cant be the only one who is sick of politicians dodging important questions and just quoting their manifestos then quoting opposing parties manifestos to slag them off. ITS NOT REAL. it doesnt feel human and it doesnt speak to me one tiny bit.
This is why i believe UKIP is good for politics, but shouldn't even be considered a viable option as the party in power.
(who would i vote for i hear you cry! none of them, until i see a genuine man or woman speaking to me as a person about their beliefs which hopefully would be similar to mine, and not just quoting their manifestos again and again, i will steer clear of the voting booths.)
Herein lies the problem too many people with an opinion not using their vote. I am not new to politics I have been a voter for 20 years now. I agree UKIP have stirred things up and got the other parties on their toes and that is definately not a bad thing.
However, what UKIP stands for is more than just a policy on the EU and immigration. They have garnered support through instilling fear into people. Use figures that are often overinflated. I can only speak about the UKIP candidates I have met and they are openly racist people not just against immigrants but against anyone who is not white British. This isn't stereotyping it is based on my own observations of the candidates I have met in person.
Our country has become known for it's diversity and I agree that immigration needs to be more tightly controlled. Coming out of the EU without properly informing the British people what we would be giving up is madness. I don't think many people realise how many jobs in the country are subsidised by EU funding. How many of our poorest areas can access funding to improve their services. How many environment improvement schemes to reduce pollution are funded by the EU. Maybe if Nigel Farage wasn't one if the worst attending members of the European Parliment he would understand this a little better himself.
If a party is to benefit this country it has to have sound policies. If you read all of their policies they really don't add up. Cutting taxes but increasing public spending don't go together.
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Original post by geokinkladze
If this is the story I remember rightly it was the Tories who leaked the idea of the story about the dog (Theresa May, Home Secretary no less in front of the house of commons. She who they have been toting as potential prime minister).
It subsequently turned out that the story was exaggerated, the dog was a factor, but was far from the main reason in the case. While not exactly a government lie, it was a government white lie.
It subsequently turned out that the story was exaggerated, the dog was a factor, but was far from the main reason in the case. While not exactly a government lie, it was a government white lie.
I think she had been misinformed. TM would not lie and yes she is a good shout for next PM. We need a hard PM to differentiate, so I think that will be a good thing. Better than Dave.
Original post by Tom78
I cba to quote all of you idiots but here's a simple formula for you, **** economy = rise of the far right = social stigma. Who can we blame, the Jews? Nope, don't wanna go down that road again, ahh yess the Romanians and Bulgarians, how convenient that they were only admitted into the EU last year! Let's in fact forget the thousands of Polish ex pats living here already here in favour of speculating whether these Romanian devils may or may not travel here.
Lazy argument, seen it and heard it all over the place. Plain wrong.
What is happening is new. F**ked Eastern and Southern Euro economies are leading to mass migration to places with better opportunity of a job and benefits - our small country's infrastructure cannot stand it and our own kids cannot find jobs.
It is nothing to do with hating immigrants and everything to do with scale.
Do your self a favour, go to your local A&E and see how stretched the resources are.
.
Just because you're a lefty doesn't mean you have to switch your brain off.
UKIP have argued for:
1) the ability for people to pay to jump waiting lists on the NHS - elitist access to healthcare ahead of those who cannot afford to. What would Jesus do?
2) Banning all teaching of climate change.
3) the abolishment of inheritance tax to appease the very rich
4) Ukip has voted against updated rules on cab design and safety, which would make it easier for the drivers of lorries to spot pedestrians and cyclists
5) against requirements that MEPs who draft legislation should publish which lobbyists they have met and their influence on the legislation
6) It opposed greater transparency for clinical trials data and greater protections for holidaymakers buying package holidays.
7) Also legislation to tackle money laundering and calls for greater public access to EU documents.
8) The 2010 manifesto, which Farage has admittedly called "drivel", called for taxi drivers to be required to wear uniforms, dress codes for the theatre and for the Circle line on London's underground to be made a circle again.
9) Their friends in Europe are on the far right
10) they want to scrap paid maternity leave - this in turn will further increase already not-so-nice childhood poverty statistics
11) UKIP want to make it legal for employers to discriminate on the basis of gender (as well as race).
12) This would also entail the scrapping of employment regulations against sexual harassment and safeguards for part time and irregular workers, the majority of which are women.
13) UKIP’s MEPs have consistently failed to represent the interests of women. They have voted against or simply not turned up to key votes in the European Parliament on ensuringequal pay, combating violence against women and ruling out FGM, to name but a few.
14) Since the 2009 European Election UKIP’s only two female MEPs, Nikki Sinclaire and Marta Andreasen, have both left the party. Andreason said Farage “doesn’t try to involve intelligent professional women in positions of responsibility in the party. He thinks women should be in the kitchen or in the bedroom”. Nikki Sinclaire won an Employment Tribunal claim for sex discrimination against the party.
15) Roger Helmer, UKIP MEP and candidate in the Newark by-election, said, “Rape is always wrong, but not always equally culpable.” - meaning he thinks that rape within marriage should be perfectly legal
16) David Chalice , a senior party official in Exeter, has voiced his belief that women should stay at home and that “cash-strapped Moslems” should have multiple wives.
17) Increase in Tax for 88% of the poorest people in Britain.
In all honestly, I like Britain the way it is, and I'd rather not see it change, the way UKIP does.
1) the ability for people to pay to jump waiting lists on the NHS - elitist access to healthcare ahead of those who cannot afford to. What would Jesus do?
2) Banning all teaching of climate change.
3) the abolishment of inheritance tax to appease the very rich
4) Ukip has voted against updated rules on cab design and safety, which would make it easier for the drivers of lorries to spot pedestrians and cyclists
5) against requirements that MEPs who draft legislation should publish which lobbyists they have met and their influence on the legislation
6) It opposed greater transparency for clinical trials data and greater protections for holidaymakers buying package holidays.
7) Also legislation to tackle money laundering and calls for greater public access to EU documents.
8) The 2010 manifesto, which Farage has admittedly called "drivel", called for taxi drivers to be required to wear uniforms, dress codes for the theatre and for the Circle line on London's underground to be made a circle again.
9) Their friends in Europe are on the far right
10) they want to scrap paid maternity leave - this in turn will further increase already not-so-nice childhood poverty statistics
11) UKIP want to make it legal for employers to discriminate on the basis of gender (as well as race).
12) This would also entail the scrapping of employment regulations against sexual harassment and safeguards for part time and irregular workers, the majority of which are women.
13) UKIP’s MEPs have consistently failed to represent the interests of women. They have voted against or simply not turned up to key votes in the European Parliament on ensuringequal pay, combating violence against women and ruling out FGM, to name but a few.
14) Since the 2009 European Election UKIP’s only two female MEPs, Nikki Sinclaire and Marta Andreasen, have both left the party. Andreason said Farage “doesn’t try to involve intelligent professional women in positions of responsibility in the party. He thinks women should be in the kitchen or in the bedroom”. Nikki Sinclaire won an Employment Tribunal claim for sex discrimination against the party.
15) Roger Helmer, UKIP MEP and candidate in the Newark by-election, said, “Rape is always wrong, but not always equally culpable.” - meaning he thinks that rape within marriage should be perfectly legal
16) David Chalice , a senior party official in Exeter, has voiced his belief that women should stay at home and that “cash-strapped Moslems” should have multiple wives.
17) Increase in Tax for 88% of the poorest people in Britain.
In all honestly, I like Britain the way it is, and I'd rather not see it change, the way UKIP does.
Most people say Clegg got beaten in the debate. I think Nick Clegg beat Nigel Farage in the debate by a margin. Nigel Farage's simple-sounding policies leads to people standing up for him.
United
Kingdom's
Idiotic
Politicians
Kingdom's
Idiotic
Politicians
(edited 9 years ago)
I think they are extremist, who should not deserve to rule the country
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