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Do you consider UKIP good or bad?

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Original post by lerjj
Fixed that. Do you have a list of things which they block? I'm still calling cherry-picking here until I see stats.

Their MEPs are probably sexist just because they don't have many women at the moment. It doesn't mean that that's necessarily the party line, but that previously they had only a few MEPs who were all male and probably the same social class etc. it doesn't show that that's UKIP's main policy.

Having said that, getting feminists to vote anti-UKIP would be a step in the right direction. If they're going to have sexist policies, they ought to lose the corresponding 50% of the vote.


you can see how each MEP votes here: http://www.votewatch.eu/
Reply 741
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
you can see how each MEP votes here: http://www.votewatch.eu/


This is going to take a long time to go through. The only concesus that's immediately clear is a unanimous 'no' vote to the motion: "Should there be an obligatory quota of at least 40% (by 2020) of female representation in the management boards imposed on companies ?"

40% seems quite high tbh as a forced %. The only other clear trend is a high rate of absenteeism (never a good thing) and voting no rather than yes, probably 90% of the time.

I will have a look at this, but is there anywhere where the data is more easily broken up? There's quite a few UKIP MEPs, I need to look at a few ECR/other party MEPs for comparison and there's 2 pages of 'key votes' and 697 pages of 'all votes' (basically I'm only looking at the latter but it doesn't feel representative).
Original post by RobertsClan
Cutting taxes but increasing public spending don't go together.


Therein lies another problem... the inaccurate conflagration of policies combined with illogical conclusions.

I haven't seen UKIP call for a general increase in public spending, neither have I seen a call for a general cut in the tax take. Additionally these aren't mutually exclusive and sometimes do go together.

On Question Time Piers Morgan was able to get away with the remark, unchallenged, that UKIP want to deport immigrants. That is why, to many people, the very notion that UKIP is the politics of fear just doesn't wash.
Original post by _Chris
I think she had been misinformed. TM would not lie and yes she is a good shout for next PM. We need a hard PM to differentiate, so I think that will be a good thing. Better than Dave.


She may well have been misinformed, either way it wasn't a lie but an exaggeration.
Original post by hexagonalRod
UKIP have argued for:

1) the ability for people to pay to jump waiting lists on the NHS - elitist access to healthcare ahead of those who cannot afford to. What would Jesus do?

In all honestly, I like Britain the way it is, and I'd rather not see it change, the way UKIP does.


And the way it is, is that people can pay to jump waiting lists on the NHS, right now. So I guess you agree with UKIP.
Original post by lerjj
Well that's ridiculous... UKIP's policies are pretty much extremist by conservative standards. They're proposing much more sudden changes than the other parties.


In a way, I'm grateful to live in a country where that kind of thinking occurs. The very fact that people have an exaggerated view about what extremist means is in some ways a positive thing.

Power to the people.
Original post by TATP
They are extremist in the sense they are diverting from the long standing status quo of the 3 main parties.


..and in a way I'm also disappointed that this kind of thinking occurs. The 3 main parties are in effect fighting over the centre ground so that UKIP are seen as extremist. If there was genuine choice over the spectrum UKIP wouldn't exist.
Original post by lerjj
although tbh, I only know that fascists are right wing, I'm not really sure what the word means... :s-smilie:)


:eek:
Reply 748
Original post by geokinkladze
In a way, I'm grateful to live in a country where that kind of thinking occurs. The very fact that people have an exaggerated view about what extremist means is in some ways a positive thing.

Power to the people.


Cameron told the Mail: "Ukip have condemned themselves during this campaign with a succession of pretty unpleasant remarks. I think the whole country has heard enough to know what sort of party it is."

I wonder what he could have meant by that...
Unless you can come up with a better definition of extremism then I stand by every word that I said, they're the most right-wing party and propose to enact radical changes very fast. I call that extremism.

Yeah, extremism is worse in other areas of the world, but something can be extremist relative to the culture. And UKIP are pretty extreme for a British political party. It was also a throwaway remark, not sure why I wrote out so much to defend it.
Reply 749
Original post by geokinkladze
:eek:

Definition_of_Fascism



I now know what it means. I can't really remember why I brought it up to be honest. By this definition, UKIP are not fascist but are closer than many other parties. Especially by Griffin's definition, although that is admittedly the laxest of them all. But I definitely retract any suggestion that UKIP is actually fascist (I think I may have been defending someone else's comment about this, who later started calling them Nazis which was too far, but I can't remember exactly.)

Mainly just quoting this to try and appear less dumb really. I could have told you all of the above, I assumed that fascism had a close-cut definition like libertarianism or socialism etc. As it is, its just a nebulous word to describe aggressive right-wing dictatorships in the inter-war period.


(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by lerjj
The only concesus that's immediately clear is a unanimous 'no' vote to the motion: "Should there be an obligatory quota of at least 40% (by 2020) of female representation in the management boards imposed on companies ?"


So they are against discrimination (in this sense the one labelled "positive").
Reply 751
Original post by geokinkladze
So they are against discrimination (in this sense the one labelled "positive").


Pretty much everyone from the UK seemed to be against that vote, really. The value of positive discrimination is it stops people from only hiring men out of prejudice and forces them to look at female candidates, but 40% is way too high a requirement imo.

Seeing as you've arrived though, I no longer have to play devil's advocate for UKIP (not that I was very much, because I got into an argument with TATP about the green party. They didn't vote for anything really at all, abstained from practically every vote and voted against most equality issues like about FGM. I would argue that they're not the people I would want on a EU parliament. I want people who will turn up to votes, represent my wishes and consider voting in favour as well as against. I can't see any logical reason for all the 'no' votes except an attitude problem.
Original post by lerjj
a succession of pretty unpleasant remarks....Unless you can come up with a better definition of extremism then I stand by every word that I said.


Like I said if that is extreme then I'm glad to live in the UK. The flip side is that we don't get genuine choice across the spectrum.

Reply 753
Original post by geokinkladze
Like I said if that is extreme then I'm glad to live in the UK. The flip side is that we don't get genuine choice across the spectrum.


I'm not really sure how a democracy would be ordered to get a full choice. We have properly extremist parties in the BNP, SNP and we (might) have a fledgling communist party maybe? They just don't get any votes before first past the post concentrates attention on a few main parties. It's the same everywhere, America has got a more polarized two-party system than us, Australia has enforced voting but still has a two-party system. Everyone except Germany, but they've got proportional representation which doesn't always work very well (e.g. Germany 85 years ago...)

I think this way is better, voter pressure ought to be sufficient to move the centre ground if there is a real demand, otherwise true extremism is dangerous (I still think UKIP are edging towards dangerous, but in an admittedly less spectacular way than Lenin or Franco)
UKIP is bad for the UK. End of.

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Reply 755
of course they are bad.
Next year elections UKIP are not going to gain any youngsters (18-21) votes...
Original post by geokinkladze
Therein lies another problem... the inaccurate conflagration of policies combined with illogical conclusions.

I haven't seen UKIP call for a general increase in public spending, neither have I seen a call for a general cut in the tax take. Additionally these aren't mutually exclusive and sometimes do go together.

On Question Time Piers Morgan was able to get away with the remark, unchallenged, that UKIP want to deport immigrants. That is why, to many people, the very notion that UKIP is the politics of fear just doesn't wash.


They have pledged to increase the number of police officers that would require an increase in public spending

They have also pledged to cut the highest rate of tax last time I checked that would be classed as a tax cut.

Both of these things have been mentioned by Nigel Farage on TV a number of times.


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Original post by zippity.doodah
no, numbnuts, I was saying that you're probably not working with any evidence as to how they aren't unreasonably considerate towards environmentalism


Well science tells us we are heading into a sixth mass extinction event and we are on the brink of environmental catastrophe so I'm not even sure there is such a thing as 'unreasonably considerate toward environmentalism' at this point.
Original post by RobertsClan
They have pledged to increase the number of police officers that would require an increase in public spending


You do realise there is more to public spending than the number of police officers?

Original post by RobertsClan
They have also pledged to cut the highest rate of tax last time I checked that would be classed as a tax cut.

And there is more to tax than the top rate of income tax.

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