Volpone and paradise lost

Themes that I would like to come up are:
deception and disguise
flattery
seduction and its consequences
argument
role of women
relationships with God
character flaws

Reply 3

Original post by bilalakkouche

Themes that I would like to come up are:
deception and disguise
flattery
seduction and its consequences
argument
role of women
relationships with God
character flaws

Sounds good. I havent really thought about the role of women - any ideas for volpone?

Reply 4

Original post by Samboy232

Sounds good. I havent really thought about the role of women - any ideas for volpone?

Celia as innocent and pure vs the outspoken lady would be

Celia is objectified and Lady would be is laughed about - jonson criticsing 17th century portrayal of women

Reply 5

How many quotes have you memorised for these two texts?

Reply 6

I think celia is one of jonson's weakest characters. She's just kinda naive and boring. Maybe that shows that he doesn't really understand women or maybe it's just that he isnt very good at creating good characters. I guess thats all relevant - what do you think? Eve is much more interesting to me, but milton never shuts up about her being inferior to adam.

Reply 7

I barely have any for volpone yet, but paradise lost i'm able to remember 4 or 5 for each theme that i try to think of

Reply 8

afeatherofabird

11

Hi guys! Thought I'd scrape onto this thread as I'm also doing these texts and don't know things...

Right now I'm making huge A3 revision posters (coloured card) in the form of a theme title at the top, then making a table comparing Volpone/PL quotes,then underlining quotes that particularly link together in different coloured pens. I don't know anything and it's the only thing that's mildly working. I can't even plan an essay yet. :frown:

So far I've made tables for: Temptation, Greed, Flattery, and Persuasion. I intend to make tables for Morality, Pathos, possibly Use of Logic/Reason, and possibly Women

Original post by Samboy232

Sounds good. I havent really thought about the role of women - any ideas for volpone?

Imo that would be quite a hard question if it came up though as Celia and Lady Would-Be are the only ladies in Volpone! But I guess that Celia/Corvino and Lady Would-Be/Sir Pol show quite different power dynamics in marriage, and I guess you could compare it with PL, and talk about Milton's views on marriage/divorce?

Does anybody have any critics' views? All I have is the Yale university dude from the video that someone posted on the other thread, but I don't know his name :frown:

any names would be appreciated!
(But I swear AO3 is only 5 marks anyway, and AO4 is the main thing (10 marks)...?)

Reply 9

I think celia is the woman that all 17th century men want. Loyal, obdient, virtuous, quiet, reserved.

whereas Eve is the polar opposite, that's why she is blamed

Reply 10

The thing that is marked highest on this is context and structure so always relate points to context. Read up about milton and jonson

Reply 11

Original post by bilalakkouche

I think celia is the woman that all 17th century men want. Loyal, obdient, virtuous, quiet, reserved.

whereas Eve is the polar opposite, that's why she is blamed

Very nice.
maybe celia is so unbelievable because she is an ideal - doesnt really exist

Reply 12

afeatherofabird

11

Original post by Samboy232

I think celia is one of jonson's weakest characters. She's just kinda naive and boring. Maybe that shows that he doesn't really understand women or maybe it's just that he isnt very good at creating good characters. I guess thats all relevant - what do you think? Eve is much more interesting to me, but milton never shuts up about her being inferior to adam.

Celia and Bonario are both super boring... I thought that maybe Jonson is just emphasising how sometimes the immoral characters are the most interesting? Mosca and Volpone's use of disguise/deception is certainly more interesting that the one-dimensional Bonario and Celia. So the audience condemn their immorality but at the same time they're tricked into being attracted to these terrible people (a lot like how Milton gets us to feel sorry for Satan) which makes them question their own moral compass.

Also, imo, Celia/Bonario seem to be the voice of morality in the play while in PL it is Milton's narrator/Muse. It's interesting to compare Celia's protests towards Corvino/Volpone around the rape scene - e.g "O, God and his good angels!" "Is shame fled human breasts?" to the morality/immorality of PL - the narrator Milton is always (annoyingly) stepping in to say e.g. "No more of talk where God or angel guest with Man" (I have my books in front of me as you can tell...) or "Much failing, hapless Eve!"

I don't know...

Reply 13

Original post by afeatherofabird

Celia and Bonario are both super boring... I thought that maybe Jonson is just emphasising how sometimes the immoral characters are the most interesting? Mosca and Volpone's use of disguise/deception is certainly more interesting that the one-dimensional Bonario and Celia. So the audience condemn their immorality but at the same time they're tricked into being attracted to these terrible people (a lot like how Milton gets us to feel sorry for Satan) which makes them question their own moral compass.

Also, imo, Celia/Bonario seem to be the voice of morality in the play while in PL it is Milton's narrator/Muse. It's interesting to compare Celia's protests towards Corvino/Volpone around the rape scene - e.g "O, God and his good angels!" "Is shame fled human breasts?" to the morality/immorality of PL - the narrator Milton is always (annoyingly) stepping in to say e.g. "No more of talk where God or angel guest with Man" (I have my books in front of me as you can tell...) or "Much failing, hapless Eve!"

I don't know...

yeah that 'much failing' quote is a good one. Milton seems genuinely frustrated with his own character

Reply 14

Milton is frustrated because of his own relationship with women. Married 3 times and 2 died through child birth.

Jonson i way cooler about women. He describes two completely opposite women (Celia and Lady Would be) and shows how men are not content with either.

He's critiquing the 17th century view of women, as he is suggesting no body is perfect. Therefore he disagrees with Milton's portryal of Eve

Reply 15