The Arsenal Thread XIX

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Barca don't play tiki taka? That's a first...

BaconButty is right.

Tiki taka is not defensive possession. Tiki taka is the case of quick interplay and one touch passing with the ambition to score, quick triangles, high movement, high pressing they haven't been playing that for some time and you could see that in the spain match now. The midfield is too slow now with Xavi and Alonso both there. Alonso has still got it but doesn't seem to be the guy you'd have in a very dynamic midfield.

Xavi is shot though, should be replaced by Thiago or Koke.

Reply 7821

Pete_91

Original post by jam278

Barca have always played defensive possession (they were just way more effective at it from 08-10) and that was labelled as tiki taka, so that's what I'm going with.

Xavi should've been replaced with Cesc at barca...

Reply 7822

jam278

Original post by Pete_91

Na I disagree, in 08-11 Guardiola got them playing quick triangle passing football. They did defensive possession but not as much as they do now, main problem is that Xavi is shot so doesn't get into positions for that quick passing football they used to do. He just slows down play and passes sideways and backwards majority of the time.

Spain today had a weird setup, they only had one willing runner which was Costa, he made those runs and he had no help whatsoever bar Silva, Ramos and Pique were getting done by long balls.

Xavi should have been replaced by Thiago but they cocked up. Rakitic is there though and Rafinha Alcantara will most likely be in the first team next season.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 7823

username912610

He deffo isn't lying.

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Reply 7824

Vae

Original post by little_tom

Sociedad's president was in London earlier to buy-out Vela's clause. We'll get just under 10M and Sociedad will be able to keep Vela. So we're not in for him anymore. This is going to be a very frustrating summer unless we're using this as leverage for Griezmann.

Original post by Pete_91

No, the original "tiki-taka" has little to do with possession. Look at Spain at the Euros 2008, tiki taka but only 49% average possession. It's a minor aspect of it, one that's a natural result of the way it is played & a Cruijff influence but certainly not the main purpose and not a subsitute for actual defending (which is what defines defensive possession). If you look at Barça games from 08-9 and before that (since tiki taka had been played before Guardiola), you won't see as many games with extremely high possession stats. They did dominate possession but not as much and that was not "defensive" but a Cruijff influence as I said. The switch came in 2010/11 when Barça needed to compensate for dodgy defending with Puyol/Marquez gone. Overall until then the average possession had gone up by like 10%. The same goes for Spain after the WC or even the Euros 2008, who started using Xabi Alonso in a double pivot to get more control (thus more possession, 60% at the Euros 2012 vs 49% 2008) but sacrificed attacking speed in the process. Nowadays neither are playing tiki taka. The term is just wrongly associated with possession-obsesssion because foreign media only really obsessed over it in 2011 & during the Euros (when Spain didn't even play tiki taka). Guardiola used the term "ziga-zaga" because of that.

Original post by jam278

Sideways and backways passing is not a problem, main issue is that Xavi can no longer provide the defensive contribution that is required of the CM in that system. The other problem was losing Marquez & Puyol without replacing them, which made more possession necessary.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 7825

manchesterunited15

Original post by qua

No. The original term "tiki-taka", which was coined before Guardiola even set foot in Barça as a coach btw, has little to do with possession. It's a minor aspect of it, but one that is a natural result of the way it is played & certainly not a subsitute for actual defending (which is what defines defensive possession) or a main purpose. If you look at Barça games from 08-10, you'll rarely see extremely high possession stats. The switch to extreme possession came in 2010/11 when Barça needed to find a way to compensate for dodgy defending with Puyol/Marquez gone, that's when the average possession went up by like 10%. The same goes for Spain after the World Cup, who started using Xabi Alonso in a double pivot to get more control(thus more possession) but sacrificed attacking speed in the process. Nowadays neither of them are playing tiki taka. The term is just wrongly used & associated with possession-obsesssion because foreign media only really obsessed over it in 2011 & during the Euros (when Spain didn't even play tiki taka). Guardiola used the term "ziga-zaga" because of that.

Sideways and backways passing is not a problem, main issue is that Xavi can no longer provide the defensive contribution that is required of the CM in that system. The other problem was losing Marquez & Puyol without replacing them, which made more possession necessary.

I think that's an exaggeration

Reply 7826

Pete_91

Original post by qua

Seems like Vela really doesn't want to go back to England though based on what he said recently, so I think it's more down to that & doubts about his ability to readapt than to not being interested in him as a player.

No, the original "tiki-taka" has little to do with possession. Look at Spain at the Euros 2008, tiki taka but only 49% average possession. It's a minor aspect of it, one that's a natural result of the way it is played & a Cruijff influence but certainly not the main purpose and not a subsitute for actual defending (which is what defines defensive possession). If you look at Barça games from 08-9 and before that (since tiki taka had been played before Guardiola), you won't see as many games with extremely high possession stats. They did dominate possession but not as much and that was not "defensive" but a Cruijff influence as I said. The switch came in 2010/11 when Barça needed to compensate for dodgy defending with Puyol/Marquez gone. Overall until then the average possession had gone up by like 10%. The same goes for Spain after the WC or even the Euros 2008, who started using Xabi Alonso in a double pivot to get more control (thus more possession, 60% at the Euros 2012 vs 49% 2008) but sacrificed attacking speed in the process. Nowadays neither are playing tiki taka. The term is just wrongly associated with possession-obsesssion because foreign media only really obsessed over it in 2011 & during the Euros (when Spain didn't even play tiki taka). Guardiola used the term "ziga-zaga" because of that.

Sideways and backways passing is not a problem, main issue is that Xavi can no longer provide the defensive contribution that is required of the CM in that system. The other problem was losing Marquez & Puyol without replacing them, which made more possession necessary.

They still played defensive possession even if they didn't have such extremely high possession stats in the early years of their dominance, they were just far better at getting the ball up top and had a far better pressing game. As I said I'm going by what is labelled as tiki-taka not what it actually is in a definitional sense.

Regardless either by barca no longer playing the system or by it becoming inferior to other systems, tiki-taka as a system is dead (for spain and barca).

Reply 7827

Vae

Original post by Pete_91

Well ofc possession is always a way to avoid defending as Cruijff said so in a way all possession is "defensive possession" (redundant term perhaps). This recent extreme possession is new though. "Tiki taka" just refers to the passing game style (hence the word) and no team has really played like that for 2-3 years, but I get you're talking about the way it's used/labelled in the media, so I see what you mean.

I agree "tiki taka" is dead (as in no longer played) and whatever Barça/Spain are playing atm it is dead too (as in useless). Doubt Spain will not use a quick passing-based system in the future though. They'll change their personnel to younger players, which will automatically accelerate the play & improve the pressing. With those changes & the right tactics the system can still be successful, after all quick passing hasn't suddenly become ineffective, but we'll see.

Looks like they're pretty much ****ed for this WC though.

Original post by manchesterunited15

I think that's an exaggeration

It's merely a rough estimation for the period of time from Rijkaard to Guardiola's last 2 seasons, not sure if it's that exaggerated. But to be precise for Guardiola's spell it was 7% between 08/9 and 10/11. Could have worded that differently. ~11% for Spain between Euros 2008 and '12.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 7828

trrr

7.6 per cent to be exact.

Reply 7829

jam278

Original post by qua

Wouldn't you say that Pique is fine as a replacement? Puyol hasn't been replaced and that's clear, Guardiola used Mascherano there to help with recirculating possession and because Milito was terrible but obviously he's not done too great as expected.

I was saying that Xavi isn't as mobile as before in attacking as well. Maybe it's just how Xavi plays but since I've watched him properly I've never really seen him take hold of a game like Busquetts or Iniesta.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 7830

little_tom

Enda Brady (Sky Sports) saying Wenger is interested in Coleman and expects us to make a bid. Can not see him go for anything less than 20M.

Reply 7831

ZÃ¼rich

Original post by little_tom

Enda Brady (Sky Sports) saying Wenger is interested in Coleman and expects us to make a bid. Can not see him go for anything less than 20M.

Arsenal/Everton couldnt negotiate a fee for any player, both tight as ****.

Now ideally we'd send them some players in return to break the impasse, Arteta, Vermaelen or Gnabry/Joel Campbell on loan but in reality we'll consider a bid for 4 weeks before making a final offer of £10m.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 7832

AR_95

I think all this hype about Chelsea with Cesc and Costa is far fetched tbh

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Reply 7833

Pete_91

Original post by AR_95

I think all this hype about Chelsea with Cesc and Costa is far fetched tbh

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Costa and Cesc with Matic in January is absolutely quality transfer dealings though. All we've managed to do is get around 10m from clauses and cancelling them.

Reply 7834

AR_95

Original post by Pete_91

Costa and Cesc with Matic in January is absolutely quality transfer dealings though. All we've managed to do is get around 10m from clauses and cancelling them.

For sure but all this hype about them being invincible next season just doesn't seem right. I've got a feeling Costa will have a rough season and although he's quality atm I still think Suarez and Aguero are better. We don't actually know how Cesc is going to perform yet and if he's being sold by Barca I doubt he's the world beater we make him out to be. Doesn't seem like a mourinho type player but time will tell.

Right now I'm more worried about Van Gaal pulling off another shock with UTD

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Reply 7835

ZÃ¼rich

Original post by Pete_91

Costa and Cesc with Matic in January is absolutely quality transfer dealings though. All we've managed to do is get around 10m from clauses and cancelling them.

Between the £5m from Cesc and £10m from Vela we've made a decent amount. Also cleared a good £300k from the wage bill

And say what you like, Wenger making £15m without selling a player is only likely to make him spend more!

Reply 7836

Pete_91

Original post by Zürich

I'll believe it when I see it. We love to fill a good high interest bank account you of all people should know that.

Reply 7837

Peggles_*

Original post by little_tom

Enda Brady (Sky Sports) saying Wenger is interested in Coleman and expects us to make a bid. Can not see him go for anything less than 20M.

Well the Cesc and Vela money would pretty much pay for him. Go for it AW! I'd much rather BPL ready players like Coleman than having to wait for someone like Aurier to bed in and get used to the league.

Reply 7838

AR_95

Said rumours that Cazorla wants to go to Atletico

This window is not looking good

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Reply 7839

ZÃ¼rich

Original post by AR_95

Said rumours that Cazorla wants to go to Atletico

This window is not looking good

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Would let him go for £25m. He's 29 and not suitable to play with Ozil.

Wilshere, Ramsey, Rosicky are adequate cover for Ozil

To be absolutely honest, Ive always suspected that Tomas Rosicky is a superior player to Cazorla. Rosicky seems to be one of those evergreen players as well, still got plenty of running in him.