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Isn't reproduction technically child abuse?
When a baby is born, it has no choice in the matter of whether it wishes to come in to this world.
To not give someone a choice in a matter is to deprive them of free will.
Not only that but you will be bringing them in to a world in which 99.99% of people might not even specifically care about them- or have the time / emotion / intellect to show that they care about them.
A world in which they could experience great pain - physical, emotional, intellectual - at any point which could last a lifetime depending on how sensitive they are or how supportive the people in their environment are.
A world in which some of the greatest people who have lived are dead, not close to hand or who never had the appreciation that they deserved in their own lifetime - or even after that.
A world in which they are at the mercy of choices denied to them - such as where and when they are born and often which school they will go to.
If a parent feels that it gives it childs adequate love, they form that opinion subjectively based on how they feel that their child's upbringing compares to their own. And family love is sometimes no weapon against uncaring 'society'. So the child has to learn how to fend for themselves. Someone who never even asked to be born is put in an unavoidable situation where they have to conquer, adapt, be controlled or shrink away. None of these options is sufficient enough for clever and sensitive children that they would have happy enough lives. Because in order to preserve their sensitivity they have to conquer which means that they compromise their very sensitivity. So by being born, which they were not given a choice in, they are forced to deny their very self. If that is not a supreme example of child abuse- at an existential level- I don't know what is.
If God exists, God no doubt wants some (not necessarily all) to reproduce.
But if God exists God surely wouldn't make life so very hard on some of the young. It's hard for the young to even look at some adults - adults who are walking embodiments of failure in many cases.
But if God does not exist (as many say) there is no objective yardstick that says that reproduction is a good. Just because it might feel nice having sex doesn't mean that its possible product is necessarily a good.
To not give someone a choice in a matter is to deprive them of free will.
Not only that but you will be bringing them in to a world in which 99.99% of people might not even specifically care about them- or have the time / emotion / intellect to show that they care about them.
A world in which they could experience great pain - physical, emotional, intellectual - at any point which could last a lifetime depending on how sensitive they are or how supportive the people in their environment are.
A world in which some of the greatest people who have lived are dead, not close to hand or who never had the appreciation that they deserved in their own lifetime - or even after that.
A world in which they are at the mercy of choices denied to them - such as where and when they are born and often which school they will go to.
If a parent feels that it gives it childs adequate love, they form that opinion subjectively based on how they feel that their child's upbringing compares to their own. And family love is sometimes no weapon against uncaring 'society'. So the child has to learn how to fend for themselves. Someone who never even asked to be born is put in an unavoidable situation where they have to conquer, adapt, be controlled or shrink away. None of these options is sufficient enough for clever and sensitive children that they would have happy enough lives. Because in order to preserve their sensitivity they have to conquer which means that they compromise their very sensitivity. So by being born, which they were not given a choice in, they are forced to deny their very self. If that is not a supreme example of child abuse- at an existential level- I don't know what is.
If God exists, God no doubt wants some (not necessarily all) to reproduce.
But if God exists God surely wouldn't make life so very hard on some of the young. It's hard for the young to even look at some adults - adults who are walking embodiments of failure in many cases.
But if God does not exist (as many say) there is no objective yardstick that says that reproduction is a good. Just because it might feel nice having sex doesn't mean that its possible product is necessarily a good.
(edited 9 years ago)
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Original post by Nogoodsorgods
When a baby is born, it has no choice in the matter of whether it wishes to come in to this world.
So, are we to presume that reproduction is only acceptable when the child has written a letter of consent? I think you'll find if they could make a decision, they would choose to be alive, anyway...
To not give someone a choice in a matter is to deprive them of free will.
It's hardly a matter of free will, when you think of the science.
By planting a seed you're depriving the plant of a choice, too, is that wrong?
Not only that but you will be bringing them in to a world in which 99.99% of people might not even specifically care about them- or have the time / emotion / intellect to show that they care about them.
Do you need to have your existence acknowledged by all 7.2 billion people on the planet in order to be happy?
A world in which they could experience great pain - physical, emotional, intellectual - at any point which could last a lifetime depending on how sensitive they are or how supportive the people in their environment are.
We're all in the same boat, there, I'm afraid. That's life.
A world in which some of the greatest people who have lived are dead, not close to hand or who never had the appreciation that they deserved in their own lifetime - or even after that.
Everybody dies... "The marks humans leave are too often scars."
We live in a society where you strive to be the best you can. That's a good thing.
A world in which they are at the mercy of choices denied to them - such as where and when they are born and often which school they will go to.
It creates a beautiful sense of diversity. It makes us more unique.
If a parent feels that it gives it childs adequate love, they form that opinion subjectively based on how they feel that their child's upbringing compares to their own. And family love is sometimes no weapon against uncaring 'society'. So the child has to learn how to fend for themselves. Someone who never even asked to be born is put in an unavoidable situation where they have to conquer, adapt, be controlled or shrink away. None of these options is sufficient enough for clever and sensitive children that they would have happy enough lives. Because in order to preserve their sensitivity they have to conquer which means that they compromise their very sensitivity. So by being born, which they were not given a choice in, they are forced to deny their very self. If that is not a supreme example of child abuse- at an existential level- I don't know what is.
Again, that's life... we adapt in order to survive.
It's not child abuse, which is such a ridiculous exaggeration.
If God exists, God no doubt wants some (not necessarily all) to reproduce.
But if God exists God surely wouldn't make life so very hard on some of the young. It's hard for the young to even look at some adults - adults who are walking embodiments of failure in many cases.
Why would this 'God' you speak of create so much of a failure in your eyes?
What is the point of a species if they aren't to breed, adapt and survive?
Are we to stop all of this, as nature is classed as child abuse?
To give up on our society in an instant and accept oblivion?
But if God does not exist (as many say) there is no objective yardstick that says that reproduction is a good. Just because it might feel nice having sex doesn't mean that its possible product is necessarily a good.
So we should just stop reproducing? What is the point in that?People do have sex for reasons other than pleasure... But of course, having a child is now child abuse, so that would be silly.
So, are we to presume that reproduction is only acceptable when the child has written a letter of consent? I think you'll find if they could make a decision, they would choose to be alive, anyway...
To not give someone a choice in a matter is to deprive them of free will.
It's hardly a matter of free will, when you think of the science.
By planting a seed you're depriving the plant of a choice, too, is that wrong?
Not only that but you will be bringing them in to a world in which 99.99% of people might not even specifically care about them- or have the time / emotion / intellect to show that they care about them.
Do you need to have your existence acknowledged by all 7.2 billion people on the planet in order to be happy?
A world in which they could experience great pain - physical, emotional, intellectual - at any point which could last a lifetime depending on how sensitive they are or how supportive the people in their environment are.
We're all in the same boat, there, I'm afraid. That's life.
A world in which some of the greatest people who have lived are dead, not close to hand or who never had the appreciation that they deserved in their own lifetime - or even after that.
Everybody dies... "The marks humans leave are too often scars."
We live in a society where you strive to be the best you can. That's a good thing.
A world in which they are at the mercy of choices denied to them - such as where and when they are born and often which school they will go to.
It creates a beautiful sense of diversity. It makes us more unique.
If a parent feels that it gives it childs adequate love, they form that opinion subjectively based on how they feel that their child's upbringing compares to their own. And family love is sometimes no weapon against uncaring 'society'. So the child has to learn how to fend for themselves. Someone who never even asked to be born is put in an unavoidable situation where they have to conquer, adapt, be controlled or shrink away. None of these options is sufficient enough for clever and sensitive children that they would have happy enough lives. Because in order to preserve their sensitivity they have to conquer which means that they compromise their very sensitivity. So by being born, which they were not given a choice in, they are forced to deny their very self. If that is not a supreme example of child abuse- at an existential level- I don't know what is.
Again, that's life... we adapt in order to survive.
It's not child abuse, which is such a ridiculous exaggeration.
If God exists, God no doubt wants some (not necessarily all) to reproduce.
But if God exists God surely wouldn't make life so very hard on some of the young. It's hard for the young to even look at some adults - adults who are walking embodiments of failure in many cases.
Why would this 'God' you speak of create so much of a failure in your eyes?
What is the point of a species if they aren't to breed, adapt and survive?
Are we to stop all of this, as nature is classed as child abuse?
To give up on our society in an instant and accept oblivion?
But if God does not exist (as many say) there is no objective yardstick that says that reproduction is a good. Just because it might feel nice having sex doesn't mean that its possible product is necessarily a good.
So we should just stop reproducing? What is the point in that?People do have sex for reasons other than pleasure... But of course, having a child is now child abuse, so that would be silly.
Annotations in purple...
May I ask, OP, what you feel the purpose of your life is?
Are you angry at your parents for not giving a bundle of cells a choice (and how would they have known 'your' decision?)?
Do you feel a victim of child abuse, like you said we were all victims of?
Since I would not have existed they would not need to know whether I would have wished to exist because there would be no 'I' to have asked.
Yes, on the whole I would rather that I had not been born. This is partly because I am a narcissist (on my behalf and on behalf of others for whom I am narcissistic on their behalf) who can't bear that there are people who don't care / know about my welfare, motives, abilities (or that of others). But I wouldn't want the pain of suicide - or theirs.
If you do not feel aggrieved by life then I argue that all you've done is turned that original 'sin' (of being brought in to the world without it being possible to gain your consent) in to your own sins. So when you do things in life that are expressions of your own ego you don't really ponder/ worry too much about what Butterfly Effect - or lack of Butterfly Effect - that might have.
Because some events do have seismic ripples in invidivuals lives which quietly and sometimes instantaneously help or hinder other people permanently. You only have to consider 2 World Wars for a start.
Whenever anyone who likes to think of themselves as grown up does anything they should really be wondering what impact that is going to have on others rather than just themselves. But I argue that not enough people do for me to be swayed away from the feeling that, on balance, it is a kind of abuse to inflict life and all its possible disappointments on those are who least equipped to deal with them - children. The evidence of life is an argument for no life. So I am Nietzscian I am sure. I would wish it to all disappear in a second with no harm nor injustice nor lasting effect.
Yes, on the whole I would rather that I had not been born. This is partly because I am a narcissist (on my behalf and on behalf of others for whom I am narcissistic on their behalf) who can't bear that there are people who don't care / know about my welfare, motives, abilities (or that of others). But I wouldn't want the pain of suicide - or theirs.
If you do not feel aggrieved by life then I argue that all you've done is turned that original 'sin' (of being brought in to the world without it being possible to gain your consent) in to your own sins. So when you do things in life that are expressions of your own ego you don't really ponder/ worry too much about what Butterfly Effect - or lack of Butterfly Effect - that might have.
Because some events do have seismic ripples in invidivuals lives which quietly and sometimes instantaneously help or hinder other people permanently. You only have to consider 2 World Wars for a start.
Whenever anyone who likes to think of themselves as grown up does anything they should really be wondering what impact that is going to have on others rather than just themselves. But I argue that not enough people do for me to be swayed away from the feeling that, on balance, it is a kind of abuse to inflict life and all its possible disappointments on those are who least equipped to deal with them - children. The evidence of life is an argument for no life. So I am Nietzscian I am sure. I would wish it to all disappear in a second with no harm nor injustice nor lasting effect.
Original post by Nogoodsorgods
To not give someone a choice in a matter is to deprive them of free will.
Rubbish. Suicide isn't illegal.
Definitely
So, any process of birth to any creature is a sin?
Sure you flop into this world as a useless wobbly blob of baby and the world's a tough place... For a baby.
And then you grow up, grow stronger and beat whatever you were weak to. Yes not everything will be fine and dandy but there's no reason to resort back to being a dribbly turdbag if you can't get somewhere. PERSEVERE.
It's not child abuse. Child abuse is physical and mental mistreatment to a child, although I suppose to which degree would be determined via society, but we agree on almost everything anyway. Would you say school is child abuse? That sure was a mental beating wasn't it? Having to learn everything us humans have learnt that progresses us past the everyday monkey, but it's not child abuse. PE was terrible though.
Wishing for all life to simply eradicate and disappear in an instant is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Mainly because there's nothing to it. No plants, no people, no animals, no planet, no stars. Are you some transdimensional being trapped in a body in our simple 3D reality wishing you were free to create and imagine your own existence? Because that's the only way any of this would make any sense at all.
Sure you flop into this world as a useless wobbly blob of baby and the world's a tough place... For a baby.
And then you grow up, grow stronger and beat whatever you were weak to. Yes not everything will be fine and dandy but there's no reason to resort back to being a dribbly turdbag if you can't get somewhere. PERSEVERE.
It's not child abuse. Child abuse is physical and mental mistreatment to a child, although I suppose to which degree would be determined via society, but we agree on almost everything anyway. Would you say school is child abuse? That sure was a mental beating wasn't it? Having to learn everything us humans have learnt that progresses us past the everyday monkey, but it's not child abuse. PE was terrible though.
Wishing for all life to simply eradicate and disappear in an instant is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Mainly because there's nothing to it. No plants, no people, no animals, no planet, no stars. Are you some transdimensional being trapped in a body in our simple 3D reality wishing you were free to create and imagine your own existence? Because that's the only way any of this would make any sense at all.
Ohhhh. 
This is why i secretly curse my parents everyday i wake up from sleep. If i had the choice i would defo choose to not be born
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Posted from TSR Mobile
O.o
Well, that was a happy post.
Surely not reproducing is also child abuse, with that logic, because you're depriving potential children of life that they could have wanted and enjoyed?
Babies are blank canvases. They're not capable of wanting or not wanting life, so it is in no way immoral to give birth to them. And most people who live are happy to be alive.
Well, that was a happy post.
Surely not reproducing is also child abuse, with that logic, because you're depriving potential children of life that they could have wanted and enjoyed?
Babies are blank canvases. They're not capable of wanting or not wanting life, so it is in no way immoral to give birth to them. And most people who live are happy to be alive.
Original post by paradoxicalme
O.o
Well, that was a happy post.
Surely not reproducing is also child abuse, with that logic, because you're depriving potential children of life that they could have wanted and enjoyed?
Babies are blank canvases. They're not capable of wanting or not wanting life, so it is in no way immoral to give birth to them. And most people who live are happy to be alive.
Well, that was a happy post.
Surely not reproducing is also child abuse, with that logic, because you're depriving potential children of life that they could have wanted and enjoyed?
Babies are blank canvases. They're not capable of wanting or not wanting life, so it is in no way immoral to give birth to them. And most people who live are happy to be alive.
I really dont think most people alive today are actually happy to be alive. How many people live in war torn countries in poverty? Do you think they're happy? Theres even loadsa people in first world countries with depression and stuffs. Reproduction is selfish
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Oh my ****ing god... 
What do you suggest we do then?
What do you suggest we do then?
Original post by QuantumSuicide
I really dont think most people alive today are actually happy to be alive. How many people live in war torn countries in poverty? Do you think they're happy? Theres even loadsa people in first world countries with depression and stuffs. Reproduction is selfish
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
I do not think that people living in poverty are automatically unhappy, no. I think that dehumanises them. Mental illnesses like depression is a different matter; but we adjust to our own circumstances and we all have different things that make us happy. There are plenty of happy people in war-torn, poverty-stricken countries. There are also plenty of unhappy people there; but unhappiness is very rarely permanent. Even the unhappy can still wish to be alive, because they believe things will get better.
Original post by Nogoodsorgods
When a baby is born, it has no choice in the matter of whether it wishes to come in to this world.
To not give someone a choice in a matter is to deprive them of free will.
To not give someone a choice in a matter is to deprive them of free will.
This seems like one of those random ideas you've had in the middle of the night about what constitutes. The key issue here is that the decision to bring a child into the world is not taken by the child but instead their parents. However how far do you intend to take this, is enrolling a child into school a for of child abuse? What about ensuring they have regular health check-ups? The reason we have the age of majority is because children have to be given room to grow into fully functioning adults who can make there own decision. Bringing a child into the world is an act of selfishness in many ways but it's not child abuse.
Not only that but you will be bringing them in to a world in which 99.99% of people might not even specifically care about them- or have the time / emotion / intellect to show that they care about them.
However if we all stopped having children the world would die out. I do believe in childbearing as a social responsibility and that you should only undertake having children when are you financially and emotionally stable enough to support them. The fact many people seemingly don't adhere to those pillars is a shame, but it's a far cry from child abuse.
A world in which they could experience great pain - physical, emotional, intellectual - at any point which could last a lifetime depending on how sensitive they are or how supportive the people in their environment are.
This is a risk we've always took with humanity. The fact that many people from difficult backgrounds have gone on to do wonderful things with there lives show that your start in life is only what you do with it. You might not deserve it but blaming your parents for it is mad.
A world in which some of the greatest people who have lived are dead, not close to hand or who never had the appreciation that they deserved in their own lifetime - or even after that.
Or alternatively you are given a person, a person of your own making, the opportunity to experience the joys of the world. The joys of our natural environment, the wonder of human invention and human interaction. You're given someone the chance to be in the modern world, you're providing somebody the greatest gift you could ever give them; life. The trade-off being that they stay with you while you teach them the rules and then they flee the nest. That is why having a child is the furthest thing from child abuse you could imagine given child abuse is the very act of denying a child a good life.
A world in which they are at the mercy of choices denied to them - such as where and when they are born and often which school they will go to.
But then a very young child would have unrealistic expectations about these things; so parents are there to step in and ensure that these decisions are made with the element of common sense that we can more often than not thank our own childhood for instilling in us. It's a business deal between the child and you; the only contentious thing is that you are the signatory at both ends until the child is old enough to understand.
If a parent feels that it gives it childs adequate love, they form that opinion subjectively based on how they feel that their child's upbringing compares to their own. And family love is sometimes no weapon against uncaring 'society'. So the child has to learn how to fend for themselves. Someone who never even asked to be born is put in an unavoidable situation where they have to conquer, adapt, be controlled or shrink away. None of these options is sufficient enough for clever and sensitive children that they would have happy enough lives. Because in order to preserve their sensitivity they have to conquer which means that they compromise their very sensitivity. So by being born, which they were not given a choice in, they are forced to deny their very self. If that is not a supreme example of child abuse- at an existential level- I don't know what is.
No, the child is required to develop to a point where they can function in society. That's just part of life and it's much better that children are able to do this under the supervision of parents than under the supervision of no-one. Re-production requires two willing participants, that's supposed to be the surest natural safeguard against unwanted children. The issues arise when children are born from irresponsible adult decisions.
NB: I've left the religious stuff out, I don't see it as relevant to the main crux of your debate. Society pressures people to reproduce, it doesn't matter whether there's a god or not.
I didn't supply any reasons for shooting it down.
I was just astonished by the premise of the question.
I was just astonished by the premise of the question.
Original post by G8D
A child isn't a 'person' until it's born so technically speaking it has absolutely no free will (or any human rights) until it takes its first breath. There's no way to reconcile this with a 'right not to be born'.
We could always ask them during the scan, if they nod their head they want to be born, if they shake it they don't.
Original post by G8D
A child isn't a 'person' until it's born so technically speaking it has absolutely no free will (or any human rights) until it takes its first breath. There's no way to reconcile this with a 'right not to be born'.
Simply this.
Original post by ILovePancakes
Simply this.
But at a certain point in a mother's womb we decide that it is a human being and don't allow abortion past that point.
So at that point it is something that is due to be given birth to without being asked.
I accept that we can't ask a child whether it would wish to be born. But we can make educated guesses as to what it might prefer to be born in to.
Not a crime ridden estate with poor local schools for a start.
Of course some great, happy, people have been born in relatively unillustrious places. In fact they might be amongst the most interesting people who have ever been born. But their character is partly in passionate- or desperate- opposition to their circumstances rather than because of them. Not everyone should be expected to have such 'will to power'. Especially when 'rules of life' more useful to public school people like 'It's the taking part that matters, not the winning' serve to keep down those born in to less silvery spoon circumstances.
Original post by Nogoodsorgods
But at a certain point in a mother's womb we decide that it is a human being and don't allow abortion past that point.
So at that point it is something that is due to be given birth to without being asked.
I accept that we can't ask a child whether it would wish to be born. But we can make educated guesses as to what it might prefer to be born in to.
Not a crime ridden estate with poor local schools for a start.
Of course some great, happy, people have been born in relatively unillustrious places. In fact they might be amongst the most interesting people who have ever been born. But their character is partly in passionate- or desperate- opposition to their circumstances rather than because of them. Not everyone should be expected to have such 'will to power'. Especially when 'rules of life' more useful to public school people like 'It's the taking part that matters, not the winning' serve to keep down those born in to less silvery spoon circumstances.
So at that point it is something that is due to be given birth to without being asked.
I accept that we can't ask a child whether it would wish to be born. But we can make educated guesses as to what it might prefer to be born in to.
Not a crime ridden estate with poor local schools for a start.
Of course some great, happy, people have been born in relatively unillustrious places. In fact they might be amongst the most interesting people who have ever been born. But their character is partly in passionate- or desperate- opposition to their circumstances rather than because of them. Not everyone should be expected to have such 'will to power'. Especially when 'rules of life' more useful to public school people like 'It's the taking part that matters, not the winning' serve to keep down those born in to less silvery spoon circumstances.
I would argue that the act of being born isn't child abuse then. The abuse occurs whilst the child is growing up.
Regardless, childline define child abuse as such:
Child abuse consists of any act of commission or omission that endangers or impairs a child’s physical or emotional health and development. Child abuse includes any damage done to a child which cannot be reasonably explained and which is often represented by an injury or series of injuries appearing to be non-accidental in nature.
Surely just because a child is not brought up in a relatively 'safe' area, this does not mean that they are being abused. A child born into a poor family may receive the same, if not more, love and commitment from its parent than a child being born into a family that is more well off. Would you still say that this child is being abused?
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