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Bakery refuses to make "gay cake"; faces legal action

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Original post by Radicalathiest
I agree this will a test case so it will be interesting to follow but I think the law is quite clear

but we'll have to wait and see:biggrin:


What do you think the law says on this point?
Original post by Radicalathiest
Would you accept the argument if they refused to 'promote' a 'black is proud' cake?

And no one is forcing their views onto them they have been asked to provide a cake with a message the point here is that the message is irrelevant as it breaks no laws

they have decied they do not like the message as it is 'pro gay' and refused the cake

but as I have asked Would you accept the argument if they refused to 'promote' a 'black is proud' cake?


Black and proud, sure i would be against refusing to serve it.
Gay and proud, sure i would be against refusing to serve it.

But they are trying to get a POLITICAL message on the cake. If a group of Islamist extremists went in and wanted a cake which promoted Sharia law in the UK, that is also political and so the store should be allowed to refuse to make the cake.
Original post by TurboCretin
What do you think the law says on this point?


The message is not offensive (just because it's pro gay does not mean it is offensive) and they were denied it because it was pro gay

This is against the equality act 2010 section 14

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/14

', A treats B less favourably than A treats or would treat a person who does not share either of those characteristics.'

(a)age;

(b)disability;

(c)gender reassignment;

(d)race

(e)religion or belief;

(f)sex;

(g)sexual orientation.
Original post by Radicalathiest
Would you accept the argument if they refused to 'promote' a 'black is proud' cake?

And no one is forcing their views onto them they have been asked to provide a cake with a message the point here is that the message is irrelevant as it breaks no laws

they have decied they do not like the message as it is 'pro gay' and refused the cake

but as I have asked Would you accept the argument if they refused to 'promote' a 'black is proud' cake?
It isn't pro-gay, it's pro gay marriage. This IS forcing views on them. And "black is proud," is a personal statement, but pro gay marriage is political. They can not be compared. A comparison would be something like a "white/black supremacy," cake or something, as it is political. And yes, they are well within their right to refuse a political cake. Edit-moral rights, not the law as you keep bloody insisting.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by JG1233
Black and proud, sure i would be against refusing to serve it.
Gay and proud, sure i would be against refusing to serve it.

But they are trying to get a POLITICAL message on the cake. If a group of Islamist extremists went in and wanted a cake which promoted Sharia law in the UK, that is also political and so the store should be allowed to refuse to make the cake.


No they should not

It is not for the shiop to decvide if they find it is offensive

there is no offense or criminality associated with calling for Sharia in the UK
Original post by Radicalathiest
No they should not

It is not for the shiop to decvide if they find it is offensive

there is no offense or criminality associated with calling for Sharia in the UK


Nope there isn't, but refusing to create that cake isn't insulting Islam in the same way refusing to make the cake in this instance isn't being homophobic.

As long as they are not discriminating against someone they can refuse service if they wish, and if they don't agree with the political message of a customer they can refuse to promote it. Its like going into the Green party headquarters and asking for BNP related articles to be printed using their printers, its not illegal and there is no legal case, similar to this one.

By making them create this cake you are FORCING people to contradict their own values, just to promote an AGENDA they don't agree with, that's nothing to do with discriminating against someone based on their sexuality etc. and is just simply anti-democratic.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Radicalathiest
No they should not

It is not for the shiop to decvide if they find it is offensive

there is no offense or criminality associated with calling for Sharia in the UK


A Sharia slogan might be "stone homosexuals to death", for instance, but then again most Muslims are black or asian so it would be racist for a white shop to refuse I suppose.
Original post by Dani California
It isn't pro-gay, it's pro gay marriage. This IS forcing views on them. And "black is proud," is a personal statement, but pro gay marriage is political. They can not be compared. A comparison would be something like a "white/black supremacy," cake or something, as it is political. And yes, they are well within their right to refuse a political cake. Edit-moral rights, not the law as you keep bloody insisting.


But it is irrelevant as far as the law is concerned

The shop owner does not get to pick and choose what he finds acceptable

and again the law is clear he would not be able to deny a cake for having a political message just because he disagrees with it

again please read

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

it will clear up your misunderstanding of the issue
Original post by Radicalathiest
But it is irrelevant as far as the law is concerned

The shop owner does not get to pick and choose what he finds acceptable

and again the law is clear he would not be able to deny a cake for having a political message just because he disagrees with it

again please read

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

it will clear up your misunderstanding of the issue

So you ARE forcing a view onto the bakers. You're obsessed with the law, go find your own opinion.
Original post by Dani California
So you ARE forcing a view onto the bakers. You're obsessed with the law, go find your own opinion.


Yes I'm enforcing the view that discrimination is wrong

It's my opinion as I support the law as do the MAJORITY of people in this country

you'll find it is those who want o discriminate that seem to be aggrieved by it (it's a common thread on the stormfront forum but at least they are open about why they don't like the law)
Reply 110
Avatar for lerjj
lerjj
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Original post by Dani California
So you ARE forcing a view onto the bakers. You're obsessed with the law, go find your own opinion.


Oh for ****s sake! Tolerance and equality are the ideal, yes. But some viewpoints actively go against these ideals and should be banned, even when this appears to contradict the origional teaching. How difficult is that to understand?

Deliberately refusing to make a cake that says 'support gay marriage' is clearly acting on an anti-gay agenda, and should not be allowed. If the message was deemed offensive (pornography, certain fundamentalist statements which, again, go against tolerance and equality) then you could deny it. Frankly, if the case is that 'support gay rights' is supposed to be offensive to some people, then those people need to chill out because it just isn't.

Those saying 'go to another bakery' don't get it.
Original post by Radicalathiest
Yes I'm enforcing the view that discrimination is wrong

It's my opinion as I support the law as do the MAJORITY of people in this country

you'll find it is those who want o discriminate that seem to be aggrieved by it (it's a common thread on the stormfront forum but at least they are open about why they don't like the law)


But they haven't broken the law? Which of these apply to this case in terms of discrimination?

(a)age Nope
(b)disability Nope
(c)gender reassignment Nope
(d)race Nope
(e)religion Nope
(f)sex Nope
(g)sexual orientation Nope


If your going to try and say (g), they didn't refuse the cake because they were gay they refused to make the cake because they wanted a political slogan the store didn't want to print. Until they create a law where you have respect everyone's OPINIONS as well, then they didn't break the law. Wait until it goes to court if you really want to insist, i'll quote you on here when the case is inevitably dismissed.
Original post by lerjj
Oh for ****s sake! Tolerance and equality are the ideal, yes. But some viewpoints actively go against these ideals and should be banned, even when this appears to contradict the origional teaching. How difficult is that to understand?

Deliberately refusing to make a cake that says 'support gay marriage' is clearly acting on an anti-gay agenda, and should not be allowed. If the message was deemed offensive (pornography, certain fundamentalist statements which, again, go against tolerance and equality) then you could deny it. Frankly, if the case is that 'support gay rights' is supposed to be offensive to some people, then those people need to chill out because it just isn't.

Those saying 'go to another bakery' don't get it.

Butthurt.
Original post by rainbow.panda
The Equality Act states that businesses cannot discriminate against people on the grounds of their sexual orientation. If they didn't agree with the laws that businesses are subject to, then why did they start a business in the first place?


But they didn't refuse to serve them because of their sexual orientation, they refused to serve them because they didn't agree with the politics they wanted on the cake? Gay marriage is a sensitive issue which has split opinions, both who believe theirs is correct and the moral standpoint, so how can we suddenly start FORCING people to promote the other opinions agenda?
Original post by JG1233
But they haven't broken the law? Which of these apply to this case in terms of discrimination?

(a)age Nope
(b)disability Nope
(c)gender reassignment Nope
(d)race Nope
(e)religion Nope
(f)sex Nope
(g)sexual orientation Nope


If your going to try and say (g), they didn't refuse the cake because they were gay they refused to make the cake because they wanted a political slogan the store didn't want to print. Until they create a law where you have respect everyone's OPINIONS as well, then they didn't break the law. Wait until it goes to court if you really want to insist, i'll quote you on here when the case is inevitably dismissed.


Section 14

', A treats B less favourably than A treats or would treat a person who does not share either of those characteristics.'

A (anti Pro Gay Message) treats B (Pro Gay Message) less favourably than A treats or would treat a person who does not share either of those characteristics.'

Pro Gay Marriage would fall Under the part of E you cut off '(e)religion or belief

It is not againt the law to have the belief that pro gay marriage is acceptable and that belief is PROTECTED

also you are confusing respecting an opinion with prevent people from having their own in regards to the sales of goods act and the Equality ACT. You don't have to respect the pro gay marriage stance but you can't prevent others from having it and you can't deny them services because they do.

Yes I'll look forward to the ruling but I susspect this will be like the B&B case where I was told I was still wrong even though the law supported my stance
Original post by rainbow.panda
The Equality Act states that businesses cannot discriminate against people on the grounds of their sexual orientation. If they didn't agree with the laws that businesses are subject to, then why did they start a business in the first place?


would this be the "Equality" Act signed off in 2010, just four years ago?

(following a series of laws of increasing social engineering/communist bent which have entered the statute books since a New Labour Marxist named Macpherson produced his infamous report on the "institutionally racist -- denial is proof of your guilt" Met Police)

how many businesses actually want to deal with this crap? You're like a poster girl for unemployment
People have a right to serve whoever they like. If the courts rule of favour of the disgruntled customer it will be yet more evidence that in our misguided attempts to move towards "equality" we are actually moving towards dictatorship.
Original post by rainbow.panda
The Equality Act states that businesses cannot discriminate against people on the grounds of their sexual orientation. If they didn't agree with the laws that businesses are subject to, then why did they start a business in the first place?


It's funny how people like you are supporting this silly case, but if the roles were reversed and you owned a business that you worked hard on to build, and someone came in requesting something that goes against your BELIEFS NOT likes and dislikes, I'm pretty sure you'd refuse :smile:
Original post by rainbow.panda
The Equality Act states that businesses cannot discriminate against people on the grounds of their sexual orientation. If they didn't agree with the laws that businesses are subject to, then why did they start a business in the first place?


The state has no business interfering with free enterprise like this. Small businesses are the bedrock of our economy, and governments must do all they can to protect their freedom. Entrepreneurs don't set up businesses because they agree with legislation; they set up businesses in spite of it.

The Equality Act in its current form is authoritarian and must go.
Original post by Radicalathiest
Would you accept the argument if they refused to 'promote' a 'black is proud' cake?

And no one is forcing their views onto them they have been asked to provide a cake with a message the point here is that the message is irrelevant as it breaks no laws

they have decied they do not like the message as it is 'pro gay' and refused the cake

but as I have asked Would you accept the argument if they refused to 'promote' a 'black is proud' cake?


Really interesting argument.

What are you views if a Muslim asked for a cake reading "Sharia law for the UK" or "Stone adulterous women to death" or a Christian asked for a cake reading "God hates fags" or a BNP member asked for a cake reading "You can't be black and British"?

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