British jihadists caught after parents inform police
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Original post by Ggmu!
This is where we have a problem because some will slip through, it's inevitable. You can account for error, but error here is fatal. Fatal for possibly large numbers of people. Maybe the situation could have been different if Al Baghdadi (I find it odd to call him Caliph) was never released.
Not what what you mean lol
No.
No, you don't have time. What happens if they return and this think tank is months away (maybe longer) from being set up and operational? Do you just keep them in detention centres for that time, send them back or just let them live in the country while things are being worked? It just seems unpractical.
I'm trying to think of the greater good, in the end you can't have it all your way. I'd love for the moderate fighters to be able to come back as they're honestly brave people even if I disagree with fighting in another country's civil war. But the risk is too great, in my opinion.
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Not what what you mean lol
No.
No, you don't have time. What happens if they return and this think tank is months away (maybe longer) from being set up and operational? Do you just keep them in detention centres for that time, send them back or just let them live in the country while things are being worked? It just seems unpractical.
I'm trying to think of the greater good, in the end you can't have it all your way. I'd love for the moderate fighters to be able to come back as they're honestly brave people even if I disagree with fighting in another country's civil war. But the risk is too great, in my opinion.
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Actually i disagree with that. IMO the threat to the UK in terms of terrorism ain't ISIS by a long shot it may be acc. westerners JaN and certain analysts have agreed with me in saying that thinking of ISIS in that kind of AQ old style terrorism on the home front thing is not true. Will look for the articles later. In the ideology of ISIS they've made hijra to their 'islamic state' and so by islamic prinicple it is impermissible to return to the land of the disbelievers.
Why can't they?
I again disagree i reckon it could work i'm sure there are already some think tanks on these related issues and also would point out that this issue should have been dealt with some time ago by the govt. Again a faliure.
Tbh i don't think we gonna agree in the slightest in this. tbh again the givt shpuld have learnt from Bosnia, Iraq, Chechneya, Yemen and Afghanistan should have taught them more about dealing with returning fighters from wars
Original post by Ibn Fulaan
Actually i disagree with that. IMO the threat to the UK in terms of terrorism ain't ISIS by a long shot it may be acc. westerners JaN and certain analysts have agreed with me in saying that thinking of ISIS in that kind of AQ old style terrorism on the home front thing is not true. Will look for the articles later. In the ideology of ISIS they've made hijra to their 'islamic state' and so by islamic prinicple it is impermissible to return to the land of the disbelievers.
Why can't they?
I again disagree i reckon it could work i'm sure there are already some think tanks on these related issues and also would point out that this issue should have been dealt with some time ago by the govt. Again a faliure.
Tbh i don't think we gonna agree in the slightest in this. tbh again the givt shpuld have learnt from Bosnia, Iraq, Chechneya, Yemen and Afghanistan should have taught them more about dealing with returning fighters from wars
Why can't they?
I again disagree i reckon it could work i'm sure there are already some think tanks on these related issues and also would point out that this issue should have been dealt with some time ago by the govt. Again a faliure.
Tbh i don't think we gonna agree in the slightest in this. tbh again the givt shpuld have learnt from Bosnia, Iraq, Chechneya, Yemen and Afghanistan should have taught them more about dealing with returning fighters from wars
Lol we'll just agree to disagree here, but I do understand your position, it's fair.
Ha there's a lot this government should have learnt from conflicts in the middle east, that's still far down the list.
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Original post by Ggmu!
Willing to bet there are many who have gone, informed their parents a d their parents will plead ignorance to the media.
Seriously want the full force of the law on these returning terrorists. A British citizen has no business fighting Assad, as they say they are.
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Seriously want the full force of the law on these returning terrorists. A British citizen has no business fighting Assad, as they say they are.
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It's the governments own fault this bloody mess happened in the first place too, and they should also be held accountable. They supported these terrorists logistically and with weapons, a ****up just like the American one with the Afghans. Only friends ISIS and Hamas seem to have left is each other though, so I suppose that's good, unless the brotherhood take over Egypt again or something.
That said, they're both going to get desperate soon enough, and we'll see bloody escalation.
Original post by Ggmu!
Lol we'll just agree to disagree here, but I do understand your position, it's fair.
Ha there's a lot this government should have learnt from conflicts in the middle east, that's still far down the list.
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Ha there's a lot this government should have learnt from conflicts in the middle east, that's still far down the list.
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Yeah i get yours. Boils down to the greater good.
smh what a mess.
Original post by samba
It's the governments own fault this bloody mess happened in the first place too, and they should also be held accountable. They supported these terrorists logistically and with weapons, a ****up just like the American one with the Afghans. Only friends ISIS and Hamas seem to have left is each other though, so I suppose that's good, unless the brotherhood take over Egypt again or something.
That said, they're both going to get desperate soon enough, and we'll see bloody escalation.
That said, they're both going to get desperate soon enough, and we'll see bloody escalation.
Lol 'holding the government responsible' just isn't real life, is it? Holding a government responsible for such things doesn't really happen, especially to a well entrenched western superpower.
You're right though, I don't disagree.
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Original post by Ggmu!
Lol 'holding the government responsible' just isn't real life, is it? Holding a government responsible for such things doesn't really happen, especially to a well entrenched western superpower.
You're right though, I don't disagree.
You're right though, I don't disagree.
Nope, not a chance. I'm just saying, in this instance, the government kinda encouraged people to take up arms against Assad. (not so explicitly as telling Brits to fight there, but they were portrayed in the media in a very positive light) - Now it failed, and they've literally just changed their mind, blissfully not giving a **** about the consequences, despite the fact they may have contributed to some of our young people going over there.
Next few months are gonna be pretty bloody, but no worries, we can blame it all on Israel and terrorists.
Original post by Ibn Fulaan
Yeah i get yours. Boils down to the greater good.
smh what a mess.
smh what a mess.
Really sad, what kind of peace will the children of that part of the world know... It doesn't bode well for the future.
Original post by samba
Nope, not a chance. I'm just saying, in this instance, the government kinda encouraged people to take up arms against Assad. (not so explicitly as telling Brits to fight there, but they were portrayed in the media in a very positive light) - Now it failed, and they've literally just changed their mind, blissfully not giving a **** about the consequences, despite the fact they may have contributed to some of our young people going over there.
Next few months are gonna be pretty bloody, but no worries, we can blame it all on Israel and terrorists.
Next few months are gonna be pretty bloody, but no worries, we can blame it all on Israel and terrorists.
Yeah I understand you, the government have such little foresight it's incredible. They rush into things so wildly.
However I don't think the government have influenced extremists to go abroad, something we can see has been happening for a long time. However the idea of going in the numbers they are as soldiers definitely follows suit from people also going as fighters before the Islamist groups made their presence known. To which some responsibility certainly lies with the British government.
Well there's no doubt who's really doing the killing there. I would blame the terrorists (Israel are getting out of hand too) however it seems like our government can do little but stoke the flame.
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Original post by Ggmu!
Yeah I understand you, the government have such little foresight it's incredible. They rush into things so wildly.
However I don't think the government have influenced extremists to go abroad, something we can see has been happening for a long time. However the idea of going in the numbers they are as soldiers definitely follows suit from people also going as fighters before the Islamist groups made their presence known. To which some responsibility certainly lies with the British government.
Well there's no doubt who's really doing the killing there. I would blame the terrorists (Israel are getting out of hand too) however it seems like our government can do little but stoke the flame.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Yeah I understand you, the government have such little foresight it's incredible. They rush into things so wildly.
However I don't think the government have influenced extremists to go abroad, something we can see has been happening for a long time. However the idea of going in the numbers they are as soldiers definitely follows suit from people also going as fighters before the Islamist groups made their presence known. To which some responsibility certainly lies with the British government.
Well there's no doubt who's really doing the killing there. I would blame the terrorists (Israel are getting out of hand too) however it seems like our government can do little but stoke the flame.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Not just rush into things, they rush out of things too. Look at Afghanistan and Iraq right now :|
I don't think they've 'influenced' it so much, but they've certainly condoned it to an extent with how they treated the groups fighting assad (also a scumbag) as freedom fighters and heroes who should be helped.
Yea, I'm Israeli (exact same views to religion as you incidentally; replace the name of the religion and you wouldn't know the difference!) and really worried about the situation there at the moment. That Palestinian kid revenge killing and the timing of it was the absolute most dangerous thing I've seen there in a long time. Hamas are also getting totally desperate as they're running out of friends, so they have nothing to lose. They need civilians to die to try and win back some support from somewhere (not even Iran likes them currently due to the ISIS thing) and Israel don't have the political stability to resist a groundswell of popular opinion to go in hard. (government swings there a lot, and if people die to rocketry with no serious response they'll just be ousted for hawks). Jordan will exert pressure too; they don't want them anywhere close. And if ISIS get involved too, well it becomes very bloody.
Original post by samba
Not just rush into things, they rush out of things too. Look at Afghanistan and Iraq right now :|
I don't think they've 'influenced' it so much, but they've certainly condoned it to an extent with how they treated the groups fighting assad (also a scumbag) as freedom fighters and heroes who should be helped.
Yea, I'm Israeli (exact same views to religion as you incidentally; replace the name of the religion and you wouldn't know the difference!) and really worried about the situation there at the moment. That Palestinian kid revenge killing and the timing of it was the absolute most dangerous thing I've seen there in a long time. Hamas are also getting totally desperate as they're running out of friends, so they have nothing to lose. They need civilians to die to try and win back some support from somewhere (not even Iran likes them currently due to the ISIS thing) and Israel don't have the political stability to resist a groundswell of popular opinion to go in hard. (government swings there a lot, and if people die to rocketry with no serious response they'll just be ousted for hawks). Jordan will exert pressure too; they don't want them anywhere close. And if ISIS get involved too, well it becomes very bloody.
I don't think they've 'influenced' it so much, but they've certainly condoned it to an extent with how they treated the groups fighting assad (also a scumbag) as freedom fighters and heroes who should be helped.
Yea, I'm Israeli (exact same views to religion as you incidentally; replace the name of the religion and you wouldn't know the difference!) and really worried about the situation there at the moment. That Palestinian kid revenge killing and the timing of it was the absolute most dangerous thing I've seen there in a long time. Hamas are also getting totally desperate as they're running out of friends, so they have nothing to lose. They need civilians to die to try and win back some support from somewhere (not even Iran likes them currently due to the ISIS thing) and Israel don't have the political stability to resist a groundswell of popular opinion to go in hard. (government swings there a lot, and if people die to rocketry with no serious response they'll just be ousted for hawks). Jordan will exert pressure too; they don't want them anywhere close. And if ISIS get involved too, well it becomes very bloody.
ISIS is friends with hamas? I didn't think they'd get along after the thing with abu nur al maqdisi?
Original post by Ibn Fulaan
ISIS is friends with hamas? I didn't think they'd get along after the thing with abu nur al maqdisi?
As far as I understand Hamas and Hezbollah are supporting ISIS/other fighters in Syria? I know that's why they fell out with Iran. It may be 'ISIS Affiliated' more than ISIS?
Where do the Muslim Brotherhood [Egypt] fit into the political spectrum regarding ISIS btw? (if you know)
Edit: Apparently ISIS are openly operating in Gaza now, so I'm not sure the exact relationship, but it must be there.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by samba
As far as I understand Hamas and Hezbollah are supporting ISIS/other fighters in Syria? I know that's why they fell out with Iran. It may be 'ISIS Affiliated' more than ISIS?
Where do the Muslim Brotherhood [Egypt] fit into the political spectrum regarding ISIS btw? (if you know)
Where do the Muslim Brotherhood [Egypt] fit into the political spectrum regarding ISIS btw? (if you know)
No way! Hamas may be (verbally) supporting the rebels hence iranian fall out in general but they most probs won't have anything to do with IS specifically!
I don't understand the question. Suffice to say that ideologically IS (as they are now called) and MB are poles apart. IS makes takfeer (excommunation) on Mursi last i heard.
"Edit: Apparently ISIS are openly operating in Gaza now, so I'm not sure the exact relationship, but it must be there."
Noooo way? I am 90% sure i'd have heard this if it was true.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by samba
Not just rush into things, they rush out of things too. Look at Afghanistan and Iraq right now :|
I don't think they've 'influenced' it so much, but they've certainly condoned it to an extent with how they treated the groups fighting assad (also a scumbag) as freedom fighters and heroes who should be helped.
Yea, I'm Israeli (exact same views to religion as you incidentally; replace the name of the religion and you wouldn't know the difference!) and really worried about the situation there at the moment. That Palestinian kid revenge killing and the timing of it was the absolute most dangerous thing I've seen there in a long time. Hamas are also getting totally desperate as they're running out of friends, so they have nothing to lose. They need civilians to die to try and win back some support from somewhere (not even Iran likes them currently due to the ISIS thing) and Israel don't have the political stability to resist a groundswell of popular opinion to go in hard. (government swings there a lot, and if people die to rocketry with no serious response they'll just be ousted for hawks). Jordan will exert pressure too; they don't want them anywhere close. And if ISIS get involved too, well it becomes very bloody.
I don't think they've 'influenced' it so much, but they've certainly condoned it to an extent with how they treated the groups fighting assad (also a scumbag) as freedom fighters and heroes who should be helped.
Yea, I'm Israeli (exact same views to religion as you incidentally; replace the name of the religion and you wouldn't know the difference!) and really worried about the situation there at the moment. That Palestinian kid revenge killing and the timing of it was the absolute most dangerous thing I've seen there in a long time. Hamas are also getting totally desperate as they're running out of friends, so they have nothing to lose. They need civilians to die to try and win back some support from somewhere (not even Iran likes them currently due to the ISIS thing) and Israel don't have the political stability to resist a groundswell of popular opinion to go in hard. (government swings there a lot, and if people die to rocketry with no serious response they'll just be ousted for hawks). Jordan will exert pressure too; they don't want them anywhere close. And if ISIS get involved too, well it becomes very bloody.
Yes, that too, of course. I won't say much on it because it's already been said.
Yes that's true, their treatment of them as freedom fighters and vilification of current returning fighters is... Confusing and misguided from the start, to say the least.
Dem Nobel prize winning deemed dere
. But no, Israel is worrying. I used to support their occupation in the past but the mere brutality is too much now, it's really unjustifiable. But everyone will forget about these recent incidents soon enough. Neither authorities are working for actual, substantial peace. I think one of the saddest things about the Palestinian cause is the apathy towards their solution in the Arab world.
Btw my views are on specific and certain religions, I'm quite a fan on a couple, i'll let you guess
Edit: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28212724
Who says we don't make things anymore!
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(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Ibn Fulaan
No way! Hamas may be (verbally) supporting the rebels hence iranian fall out in general but they most probs won't have anything to do with IS specifically!
I don't understand the question. Suffice to say that ideologically IS (as they are now called) and MB are poles apart. IS makes takfeer (excommunation) on Mursi last i heard.
"Edit: Apparently ISIS are openly operating in Gaza now, so I'm not sure the exact relationship, but it must be there."
Noooo way? I am 90% sure i'd have heard this if it was true.
I don't understand the question. Suffice to say that ideologically IS (as they are now called) and MB are poles apart. IS makes takfeer (excommunation) on Mursi last i heard.
"Edit: Apparently ISIS are openly operating in Gaza now, so I'm not sure the exact relationship, but it must be there."
Noooo way? I am 90% sure i'd have heard this if it was true.
K this is quite interesting. Reading up a bit, and it seems like ISIS and Hamas may not be intertwined, but they are somewhat recruiting in Gaza and have a presence there. Perhaps more a 'tolerance' than an 'alliance' ?
Can't verify these sources, but they are interesting: "Salafist jihadism has existed on the ground in the Gaza Strip and with a growing popular base."
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/06/29/isis-now-openly-operating-in-gaza-flags-seen-waving-at-funeral-video/
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/iw/originals/2014/05/gaza-denies-isis-presence-jihadist-killed-syria.html
Original post by Ggmu!
But no, Israel is worrying. I used to support their occupation in the past but the mere brutality is too much now, it's really unjustifiable. But everyone will forget about these recent incidents soon enough. Neither authorities are working for actual, substantial peace.
I think one of the saddest things about the Palestinian cause is the apathy towards their solution in the Arab world.
I think one of the saddest things about the Palestinian cause is the apathy towards their solution in the Arab world.
I'm kinda in two minds. I support them obviously in the general sense, though some of the treatment (not giving repatriotism to original residents etc) is kinda disgusting. There's also the immense pressure from Jordan for example, who don't want Palestinian territory anywhere near them in the event of a state for obvious reasons. It's kinda hard to blame them for specific responses; if rockets etc were fired at any other western country, they'd likely react the same. That said, I don't think they are doing all they can to resolve the situation. As I said, the political situation [and tolerance] there is far from ideal
I think most arabs hate the Palestinians really. They just hate Israel more. Not sure exactly how it works tbh. [except Jordanians and maybe some Egyptians, who hate Palestinians more.]
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by samba
K this is quite interesting. Reading up a bit, and it seems like ISIS and Hamas may not be intertwined, but they are somewhat recruiting in Gaza and have a presence there. Perhaps more a 'tolerance' than an 'alliance' ?
Can't verify these sources, but they are interesting: "Salafist jihadism has existed on the ground in the Gaza Strip and with a growing popular base."
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/06/29/isis-now-openly-operating-in-gaza-flags-seen-waving-at-funeral-video/
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/iw/originals/2014/05/gaza-denies-isis-presence-jihadist-killed-syria.html
Can't verify these sources, but they are interesting: "Salafist jihadism has existed on the ground in the Gaza Strip and with a growing popular base."
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/06/29/isis-now-openly-operating-in-gaza-flags-seen-waving-at-funeral-video/
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/iw/originals/2014/05/gaza-denies-isis-presence-jihadist-killed-syria.html
Ahhh i see.
What you need to understand firstly is that 'Salafi Jihadi' groups have existed in Gaza and indeed Jordan for a while now under various names with various ideologies and strengths. The 'Salafi Jihadi' groups now gaining a new popular base is excpected and indeed a result of the situation in Gaza (Opression).
As i said previously Hamas and Gaza probs won't have anything to do with each other in any meaningful sense due to a host of reasons.
What is likely that after Abu Bakar Al Baghdadis announcment that a few of these 'Salafi Jihadi' groups gave a pledge of allegience to him but this still won't affect things much except by symbolism in the current status.
FYI: Al monitor is a pro Iranian outlet. I don't trust it.
Original post by samba
I think most arabs hate the Palestinians really. They just hate Israel more. Not sure exactly how it works tbh. [except Jordanians and maybe some Egyptians, who hate Palestinians more.]
I think most arabs hate the Palestinians really. They just hate Israel more. Not sure exactly how it works tbh. [except Jordanians and maybe some Egyptians, who hate Palestinians more.]
Most Arab rulers and most arabs secularists hate hamas. The religious and halfway religious i would guess do not.
Original post by Ibn Fulaan
Ahhh i see.
What you need to understand firstly is that 'Salafi Jihadi' groups have existed in Gaza and indeed Jordan for a while now under various names with various ideologies and strengths. The 'Salafi Jihadi' groups now gaining a new popular base is excpected and indeed a result of the situation in Gaza (Opression).
As i said previously Hamas and Gaza probs won't have anything to do with each other in any meaningful sense due to a host of reasons.
What is likely that after Abu Bakar Al Baghdadis announcment that a few of these 'Salafi Jihadi' groups gave a pledge of allegience to him but this still won't affect things much except by symbolism in the current status.
FYI: Al monitor is a pro Iranian outlet. I don't trust it.
What you need to understand firstly is that 'Salafi Jihadi' groups have existed in Gaza and indeed Jordan for a while now under various names with various ideologies and strengths. The 'Salafi Jihadi' groups now gaining a new popular base is excpected and indeed a result of the situation in Gaza (Opression).
As i said previously Hamas and Gaza probs won't have anything to do with each other in any meaningful sense due to a host of reasons.
What is likely that after Abu Bakar Al Baghdadis announcment that a few of these 'Salafi Jihadi' groups gave a pledge of allegience to him but this still won't affect things much except by symbolism in the current status.
FYI: Al monitor is a pro Iranian outlet. I don't trust it.
Ahh, I see. So is there a chance that Hamas could actually lose control of Gaza to Salafi's/the caliphate, or are we nowhere near that point yet?
I guess my question is: Is a Salafi powerplay realistic, and could that be a reason why Hamas are forced to escalate with Israel, to keep semi-radical ground support?
edit: I'm not going to get into the rights/wrongs of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict btw. I doubt we'd ever agree totally, but we can both agree it's a totally ****ed up situation there.
Original post by samba
Ahh, I see. So is there a chance that Hamas could actually lose control of Gaza to Salafi's/the caliphate, or are we nowhere near that point yet?
I guess my question is: Is a Salafi powerplay realistic, and could that be a reason why Hamas are forced to escalate with Israel, to keep semi-radical ground support?
I guess my question is: Is a Salafi powerplay realistic, and could that be a reason why Hamas are forced to escalate with Israel, to keep semi-radical ground support?
I don't think we are anywhere near at all. Only if things get to boiling point in Jordan will that even be possible.
Not really. What is going on now has been going on for ages.
No way a Salafi powerplay is realistic unless Eygpt and or Jordan reaches critical mass imo. Hamas will escalate not primarily for support but because they have to fight back.
(edited 9 years ago)
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