World Cup 2014 Final: Germany vs Argentina
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Original post by MichelBraga
If you compare Pele's club career and Messi's one, Pele's wins, easily (if there is any winning in this, both were great). In WC, this is a tricky one, but Pele still manages to win this. In 58 he was so young and he still was one of the best players, in 62 he took the fame, but Garrincha was the best player. But in 70, he was the best player in the end, he controlled that squad beautifully.
Messi is in the GOAT Group, but comparing him to Pele is too much. Yet.
Messi is in the GOAT Group, but comparing him to Pele is too much. Yet.
Meh, let's try and add some objectivity to that first claim as I disagree. Pele won forty club trophies, Messi has won twenty-three (see Wikipedia for source). So Pele's was better, but Messi has nearly a decade on him. I think Messi's club career will outdo Pele's by the time they retire. As an individual, I think that the number of records Messi has broken give him the edge.
Look, you've given a pretty balanced argument and I can see where you're coming from. But as I said in another thread, at this stage, when one is discussing players of the calibre of Messi, Pele, Zidane, Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo, and Maradona, both of us have to concede that our preference is just that - a subjective preference. And I confess that Pele - and his fans - have spent so much time disingenuously boosting his scoring record to nearly double what it actually was that my proclivity is always to perhaps undermine what he achieved a little.
I also think that there is an unconscionable amount of nostalgia and lack of critical thought occurring. How many people have actually sat down and looked at full games - full seasons of Pele, Maradona, etc? Most people, myself included, have seen a lot of highlights reels. But this medium of research obviously creates a bias in favour of good things these players did. This leads to claims of a player carrying a team, etc. And it is far easier to remember the bad games of Messi, Ronaldo, and Neymar, because their careers are immanent. We see them game-by-game, moment by moment. Given this is a student forum, and the demographic will be 18-25, most people will have vague memories of Zidane at his peak, even vaguer ones of Ronaldo, and almost none of Maradona, and absolutely none of Pele, unless they've done a hell of a lot of detailed research.
Not trying to use this to suggest that the moderns stars are better; I think that my previous posts on this topic make it obvious that my preference for Messi is a personal one that can be challenged on some cogent level. But I think that people don't step back enough to consider what hermeneutics they're using to assess these player's careers, and what sources they have. I mean, it is just wrong to suggest that Ronaldo da Lima could be 'the man by himself'. The guy had Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, etc. Not to mention people like Cafu and Lucio who are leagues above what Neymar, or Cristiano Ronaldo have. Again: this claim in particular is just nostalgia, and falls down the moment one considers Ronaldo's performances in the World Cup play-offs for Portugal.
Not trying to use this to suggest that the moderns stars are better; I think that my previous posts on this topic make it obvious that my preference for Messi is a personal one that can be challenged on some cogent level. But I think that people don't step back enough to consider what hermeneutics they're using to assess these player's careers, and what sources they have. I mean, it is just wrong to suggest that Ronaldo da Lima could be 'the man by himself'. The guy had Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, etc. Not to mention people like Cafu and Lucio who are leagues above what Neymar, or Cristiano Ronaldo have. Again: this claim in particular is just nostalgia, and falls down the moment one considers Ronaldo's performances in the World Cup play-offs for Portugal.
Original post by KingMessi
I also think that there is an unconscionable amount of nostalgia and lack of critical thought occurring. How many people have actually sat down and looked at full games - full seasons of Pele, Maradona, etc? Most people, myself included, have seen a lot of highlights reels. But this medium of research obviously creates a bias in favour of good things these players did. This leads to claims of a player carrying a team, etc. And it is far easier to remember the bad games of Messi, Ronaldo, and Neymar, because their careers are immanent. We see them game-by-game, moment by moment. Given this is a student forum, and the demographic will be 18-25, most people will have vague memories of Zidane at his peak, even vaguer ones of Ronaldo, and almost none of Maradona, and absolutely none of Pele, unless they've done a hell of a lot of detailed research.
Not trying to use this to suggest that the moderns stars are better; I think that my previous posts on this topic make it obvious that my preference for Messi is a personal one that can be challenged on some cogent level. But I think that people don't step back enough to consider what hermeneutics they're using to assess these player's careers, and what sources they have. I mean, it is just wrong to suggest that Ronaldo da Lima could be 'the man by himself'. The guy had Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, etc. Not to mention people like Cafu and Lucio who are leagues above what Neymar, or Cristiano Ronaldo have. Again: this claim in particular is just nostalgia, and falls down the moment one considers Ronaldo's performances in the World Cup play-offs for Portugal.
Not trying to use this to suggest that the moderns stars are better; I think that my previous posts on this topic make it obvious that my preference for Messi is a personal one that can be challenged on some cogent level. But I think that people don't step back enough to consider what hermeneutics they're using to assess these player's careers, and what sources they have. I mean, it is just wrong to suggest that Ronaldo da Lima could be 'the man by himself'. The guy had Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka, etc. Not to mention people like Cafu and Lucio who are leagues above what Neymar, or Cristiano Ronaldo have. Again: this claim in particular is just nostalgia, and falls down the moment one considers Ronaldo's performances in the World Cup play-offs for Portugal.
True, but older journalists/writers receive nothing to talk about Pele/Maradona/Garrincha. They know what they saw and they know how to compare them, taking in consideration the physical and tactical aspects. If you put those players in the same terms of the modern ones, I'm sure they would still excel. However, the style of the game was much different. The ball was heavier and some positions were completely unique to that period (like Garrincha right winger position). So it is still difficult to compare them.
Original post by Kruz
Finance by now I think and she is a model.
On a side note to that, literally all the German wags look like models. So freaking hot and elegant.
Original post by missfats
Gott mit uns
Foo doo fa fa.
Original post by Dekota-XS
It's painful when you have bet money that isn't profit. £2k would be a drop in the ocean for me personally at the moment. I'm definitely taking £1k out of my betfair account tomorrow and dividing it for charities, doesn't make a difference to me how much I have now, it's all accumulated profit.
Here's a screenie of my betfair account as it stands which I started at £520 with at the start of the WC for those who kept saying ******** and stuff.
Here's a screenie of my betfair account as it stands which I started at £520 with at the start of the WC for those who kept saying ******** and stuff.
**** me. I made profit to begin with, at one point I had £500 from £50 but I ended up losing it all and more. Wanna contribute £1000? Too much? Okay just £100 then please, thanks
Original post by LightBlueSoldier
Germany have been extremely lucky. Two obvious straight reds not given in normal time. They don't deserve this.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
One of the most ludicrous and idiotic comments I've ever read. Have you actually ever watched football in your life or is this World Cup the first time you're watching football?
* Aguero got away with a clear red card, which was in the face
* So, a team that didn't hit the target a single time in 120 minutes deserves it more than one that had several shots on target?
* A lot of refereeing decisions went against Germany
So, in future, please watch some football outside of the World Cup and learn about how the sport works before commenting your utter garbage on internet forums.
Original post by muffingg
One of the most ludicrous and idiotic comments I've ever read. Have you actually ever watched football in your life or is this World Cup the first time you're watching football?
* Aguero got away with a clear red card, which was in the face
* So, a team that didn't hit the target a single time in 120 minutes deserves it more than one that had several shots on target?
* A lot of refereeing decisions went against Germany
So, in future, please watch some football outside of the World Cup and learn about how the sport works before commenting your utter garbage on internet forums.
* Aguero got away with a clear red card, which was in the face
* So, a team that didn't hit the target a single time in 120 minutes deserves it more than one that had several shots on target?
* A lot of refereeing decisions went against Germany
So, in future, please watch some football outside of the World Cup and learn about how the sport works before commenting your utter garbage on internet forums.
Argentina had the two best chances in the game. In the end it took a stunning goal to break Argentina down. Not ludicrous to suggest that Germany didnt deserve to win.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by muffingg
One of the most ludicrous and idiotic comments I've ever read. Have you actually ever watched football in your life or is this World Cup the first time you're watching football?
* Aguero got away with a clear red card, which was in the face
* So, a team that didn't hit the target a single time in 120 minutes deserves it more than one that had several shots on target?
* A lot of refereeing decisions went against Germany
So, in future, please watch some football outside of the World Cup and learn about how the sport works before commenting your utter garbage on internet forums.
* Aguero got away with a clear red card, which was in the face
* So, a team that didn't hit the target a single time in 120 minutes deserves it more than one that had several shots on target?
* A lot of refereeing decisions went against Germany
So, in future, please watch some football outside of the World Cup and learn about how the sport works before commenting your utter garbage on internet forums.
your post is so ironic
Original post by ArsenalWenger
Argentina had the two best chances in the game. In the end it took a stunning goal to break Argentina down. Not ludicrous to suggest that Germany didnt deserve to win.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Germany had the best tournament. Argentina were mediocre for much of it. Algeria? The whole team was fasting and should have beaten Argentina. They didn't deserve that win, by your logic. They also got a lucky win over Netherlands -- penalties require a huge amount of luck-- and were very fortunate to get 3 points against Iran. Iran had the better chances, but Argentina were rescued by Messi. Germany played well throughout and let's not forget they inflicted the greatest punishment on the tournaments most successful team. That win goes down in history.
also, Germany became the first European team to win in South America and they beat the two giants on the continent, Argentina and Brazil, on their way. What more do you want?? That was Brazil's first lost on home turf since 1951 or something.
On the night, Germany edged it. It was 50:50 but in the latter stages of the game and in extra time, they were dominating. That goal was a worthy winner. Argentina got a little dirty too (Mascherano fouling Schweinstiger; Aguero cutting catching him in the face).
It's a team sport. The Germans have several top performers in the competition throughout the team. Argentina had Messi in the first half of the tournament literally carrying them. They relied on him too much. Mediocre players throughout that team really
I just feel sorry for the people. It's a relatively poor country in hard times. To get so far and lose is harsh. Even the Brazilians wanted them to win it for the sake of South America. The truth is they didn't do enough and didn't deserve the trophy. Well done for getting so far, especially past the superior Dutch imo
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by KingMessi
So you'd disagree that he has problems with his physique?
You know what, I'm just going to try and avoid any predictions for another year. I suspect that his reign is over, and the hamstring injuries, or problem of having achieved literally everything but a World Cup already, or something else, have halted him. But he has a month off now before things resume - and hopefully he'll be tearing defences apart in six weeks time again.
You know what, I'm just going to try and avoid any predictions for another year. I suspect that his reign is over, and the hamstring injuries, or problem of having achieved literally everything but a World Cup already, or something else, have halted him. But he has a month off now before things resume - and hopefully he'll be tearing defences apart in six weeks time again.
What's wrong with his physique? He's relied on his pace for some of his fantastic goals and he'll lose that with age but he's so good on the ball and with a pass that I think he'll just play deeper with age and start controlling games rather than scoring 50 goals a season.
I think he might have another quiet season due to not fully recovering from all the constant hard work but he'll have Neymar and Suarez next to him which should take some of the pressure off him to always be doing the impossible by himself.
Original post by silent ninja
Germany had the best tournament. Argentina were mediocre for much of it. Algeria? The whole team was fasting and should have beaten Argentina. They didn't deserve that win, by your logic. They also got a lucky win over Netherlands -- penalties require a huge amount of luck-- and were very fortunate to get 3 points against Iran. Iran had the better chances, but Argentina were rescued by Messi. Germany played well throughout and let's not forget they inflicted the greatest punishment on the tournaments most successful team. That win goes down in history.
also, Germany became the first European team to win in South America and they beat the two giants on the continent, Argentina and Brazil, on their way. What more do you want?? That was Brazil's first lost on home turf since 1951 or something.
On the night, Germany edged it. It was 50:50 but in the latter stages of the game and in extra time, they were dominating. That goal was a worthy winner. Argentina got a little dirty too (Mascherano fouling Schweinstiger; Aguero cutting catching him in the face).
It's a team sport. The Germans have several top performers in the competition throughout the team. Argentina had Messi in the first half of the tournament literally carrying them. They relied on him too much. Mediocre players throughout that team really
I just feel sorry for the people. It's a relatively poor country in hard times. To get so far and lose is harsh. Even the Brazilians wanted them to win it for the sake of South America. The truth is they didn't do enough and didn't deserve the trophy. Well done for getting so far, especially past the superior Dutch imo
also, Germany became the first European team to win in South America and they beat the two giants on the continent, Argentina and Brazil, on their way. What more do you want?? That was Brazil's first lost on home turf since 1951 or something.
On the night, Germany edged it. It was 50:50 but in the latter stages of the game and in extra time, they were dominating. That goal was a worthy winner. Argentina got a little dirty too (Mascherano fouling Schweinstiger; Aguero cutting catching him in the face).
It's a team sport. The Germans have several top performers in the competition throughout the team. Argentina had Messi in the first half of the tournament literally carrying them. They relied on him too much. Mediocre players throughout that team really
I just feel sorry for the people. It's a relatively poor country in hard times. To get so far and lose is harsh. Even the Brazilians wanted them to win it for the sake of South America. The truth is they didn't do enough and didn't deserve the trophy. Well done for getting so far, especially past the superior Dutch imo
Ghana drew with Germany and caused them all sorts of problems. Didnt Algeria take Germany to extra time lol. Argentina realised after the group stage that their defence needed work so bought demicheles in and played more cautiously. Different ways to win football matches. Dont have to score loads or play good football. Argentina would have been worthy winners. Have to give it to Germany though. That thrashing of Brazil will never be forgotten and this world cup was won with no gundogan and reus.
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Original post by ArsenalWenger
Argentina had the two best chances in the game. In the end it took a stunning goal to break Argentina down. Not ludicrous to suggest that Germany didnt deserve to win.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
A team that did not hit the target a single time in 120 minutes of a World Cup final most certainly does not deserve to win it.
Original post by ArsenalWenger
Argentina had the two best chances in the game. In the end it took a stunning goal to break Argentina down. Not ludicrous to suggest that Germany didnt deserve to win.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Posted from TSR Mobile
Were we watching the same match? I doubt it. It's pointless. Clearly you weren't watching the same match. Must be another one of those stupid Messi fanboys. God can't help you guys. Similarly Atletico beat Barcelona undeservedly and and and...
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Original post by Jordooooom
your post is so ironic
Messi fanboy detected!
Posted from TSR Mobile
A bit ironic considering this is meant to be an anti-gambling ad.
(oh, the boy on the left is being blocked
)(edited 9 years ago)
I can't phantom why Di Maria was put on the bench when he basically was never going to come on. That game was screaming for him.
did messi score
Original post by Stinkum
did messi score
no
he played ****
worst player of the tournament
srs
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