Why are hammerings becoming more common at the top level?
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city vs arsenal as well
Original post by baconbutty
city vs arsenal as well
Everyone vs Arsenal
Original post by manchesterunited15
Everyone vs Arsenal
Lul.
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I'm going to contradict the flow of the thread, but I don't think they are more common, or becoming more common. I just think that because they're at the top level they gain more attention. They don't happen that regularly (compared to the number of games that get played) and when they happen they are memorable, indicating that they're pretty rare. The fact that, alongside the Brazil - Germany result, people are quoting our result against the Germans in 2001 and our result against the Dutch in 1996 would suggest that these results probably aren't as common as you might have thought.
Defence has gone downhill while attacking play has got better.
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Posted from TSR Mobile
I think there are two reasons.
One is this:
There's definitely been a change since I've been watching football (since the early 90s). Footballers have become a bit less tough mentally. I've heard Alex Ferguson and Harry Redknapp talk about this: the fact managers relate to players differently now. In the old days when a player wasn't in the team he'd come and see the manager and have an honest chat about areas he needed to improve. Now he gets his agent to write to the chairman to complain and threaten to leave. In the old days a manager could have a good go at a player, make him buck his ideas up, and there would be no grudge or hard feelings. Now a player gets his agent to leak stories to the press that he's being 'disrespected' and driven out of the club.
I think these days players are more celebrities interested in their brand and image than really being about the football first and foremost. Now they are so removed from the fans and ordinary people in terms of their lifestyles that they've lost touch with the real heart of the game. I think when things get tough they don't fancy it any more: Brazil last night was a classic example. They just don't dig in and fight.
The second point is that we are in a period of decline of quality defenders. In terms of attacking players there are still players up with the greats of the past. Zidane, Brazilian Ronaldo retire, and now we have Messi, Portuguese Ronaldo and (like him or not) Suarez. But defenders? Who are the real great defenders around today? You see guys like David Luiz and Vincent Kompany hailed as the best in the business but these guys make defensive errors, they aren't the real players that mastered the art of defending.
I can think of a handful of English centre backs that were streets ahead of anything you had today: Tony Adams, Sol Campbell, Martin Keown, a younger Rio Ferdinand and John Terry.
Take Keown for instance - by no means a 'superstar' of the game, but he could man mark the best strikers and eliminate them from a game, he was incredibly strong, could intimidate players physically, but he mastered the art of keeping on his man, harassing him all game, not letting him have a sniff. As I say not a big name but a master of the art. No players like him now.
Someone mentioned earlier in the threat the great Italian defenders of the 1990s. Sheesh there was some quality at the back in those days. Costacurta, Zambrotta, Bergomi, Cannavaro, Nesta, Baresi, Maldini, all legends whose careers coincided.
One is this:
Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil
Players have poor morale and no fighting spirit these days any more. Once they concede 2 or 3 goals, all they worry about is how this will affect the sales of their clothing line and how they'll get ridiculed on social media - instead of fighting back. And then they concede even more and the team falls apart...
There's definitely been a change since I've been watching football (since the early 90s). Footballers have become a bit less tough mentally. I've heard Alex Ferguson and Harry Redknapp talk about this: the fact managers relate to players differently now. In the old days when a player wasn't in the team he'd come and see the manager and have an honest chat about areas he needed to improve. Now he gets his agent to write to the chairman to complain and threaten to leave. In the old days a manager could have a good go at a player, make him buck his ideas up, and there would be no grudge or hard feelings. Now a player gets his agent to leak stories to the press that he's being 'disrespected' and driven out of the club.
I think these days players are more celebrities interested in their brand and image than really being about the football first and foremost. Now they are so removed from the fans and ordinary people in terms of their lifestyles that they've lost touch with the real heart of the game. I think when things get tough they don't fancy it any more: Brazil last night was a classic example. They just don't dig in and fight.
The second point is that we are in a period of decline of quality defenders. In terms of attacking players there are still players up with the greats of the past. Zidane, Brazilian Ronaldo retire, and now we have Messi, Portuguese Ronaldo and (like him or not) Suarez. But defenders? Who are the real great defenders around today? You see guys like David Luiz and Vincent Kompany hailed as the best in the business but these guys make defensive errors, they aren't the real players that mastered the art of defending.
I can think of a handful of English centre backs that were streets ahead of anything you had today: Tony Adams, Sol Campbell, Martin Keown, a younger Rio Ferdinand and John Terry.
Take Keown for instance - by no means a 'superstar' of the game, but he could man mark the best strikers and eliminate them from a game, he was incredibly strong, could intimidate players physically, but he mastered the art of keeping on his man, harassing him all game, not letting him have a sniff. As I say not a big name but a master of the art. No players like him now.
Someone mentioned earlier in the threat the great Italian defenders of the 1990s. Sheesh there was some quality at the back in those days. Costacurta, Zambrotta, Bergomi, Cannavaro, Nesta, Baresi, Maldini, all legends whose careers coincided.
Original post by shawn_o1
4 goals in 6 minutes, has any team boasted a worse record than that I wonder
Australia 31-0 American Samoa saw that happen multiple times I think.
Original post by MagicNMedicine
I think there are two reasons.
One is this:
There's definitely been a change since I've been watching football (since the early 90s). Footballers have become a bit less tough mentally. I've heard Alex Ferguson and Harry Redknapp talk about this: the fact managers relate to players differently now. In the old days when a player wasn't in the team he'd come and see the manager and have an honest chat about areas he needed to improve. Now he gets his agent to write to the chairman to complain and threaten to leave. In the old days a manager could have a good go at a player, make him buck his ideas up, and there would be no grudge or hard feelings. Now a player gets his agent to leak stories to the press that he's being 'disrespected' and driven out of the club.
I think these days players are more celebrities interested in their brand and image than really being about the football first and foremost. Now they are so removed from the fans and ordinary people in terms of their lifestyles that they've lost touch with the real heart of the game. I think when things get tough they don't fancy it any more: Brazil last night was a classic example. They just don't dig in and fight.
The second point is that we are in a period of decline of quality defenders. In terms of attacking players there are still players up with the greats of the past. Zidane, Brazilian Ronaldo retire, and now we have Messi, Portuguese Ronaldo and (like him or not) Suarez. But defenders? Who are the real great defenders around today? You see guys like David Luiz and Vincent Kompany hailed as the best in the business but these guys make defensive errors, they aren't the real players that mastered the art of defending.
I can think of a handful of English centre backs that were streets ahead of anything you had today: Tony Adams, Sol Campbell, Martin Keown, a younger Rio Ferdinand and John Terry.
Take Keown for instance - by no means a 'superstar' of the game, but he could man mark the best strikers and eliminate them from a game, he was incredibly strong, could intimidate players physically, but he mastered the art of keeping on his man, harassing him all game, not letting him have a sniff. As I say not a big name but a master of the art. No players like him now.
Someone mentioned earlier in the threat the great Italian defenders of the 1990s. Sheesh there was some quality at the back in those days. Costacurta, Zambrotta, Bergomi, Cannavaro, Nesta, Baresi, Maldini, all legends whose careers coincided.
One is this:
There's definitely been a change since I've been watching football (since the early 90s). Footballers have become a bit less tough mentally. I've heard Alex Ferguson and Harry Redknapp talk about this: the fact managers relate to players differently now. In the old days when a player wasn't in the team he'd come and see the manager and have an honest chat about areas he needed to improve. Now he gets his agent to write to the chairman to complain and threaten to leave. In the old days a manager could have a good go at a player, make him buck his ideas up, and there would be no grudge or hard feelings. Now a player gets his agent to leak stories to the press that he's being 'disrespected' and driven out of the club.
I think these days players are more celebrities interested in their brand and image than really being about the football first and foremost. Now they are so removed from the fans and ordinary people in terms of their lifestyles that they've lost touch with the real heart of the game. I think when things get tough they don't fancy it any more: Brazil last night was a classic example. They just don't dig in and fight.
The second point is that we are in a period of decline of quality defenders. In terms of attacking players there are still players up with the greats of the past. Zidane, Brazilian Ronaldo retire, and now we have Messi, Portuguese Ronaldo and (like him or not) Suarez. But defenders? Who are the real great defenders around today? You see guys like David Luiz and Vincent Kompany hailed as the best in the business but these guys make defensive errors, they aren't the real players that mastered the art of defending.
I can think of a handful of English centre backs that were streets ahead of anything you had today: Tony Adams, Sol Campbell, Martin Keown, a younger Rio Ferdinand and John Terry.
Take Keown for instance - by no means a 'superstar' of the game, but he could man mark the best strikers and eliminate them from a game, he was incredibly strong, could intimidate players physically, but he mastered the art of keeping on his man, harassing him all game, not letting him have a sniff. As I say not a big name but a master of the art. No players like him now.
Someone mentioned earlier in the threat the great Italian defenders of the 1990s. Sheesh there was some quality at the back in those days. Costacurta, Zambrotta, Bergomi, Cannavaro, Nesta, Baresi, Maldini, all legends whose careers coincided.
Keown was a fantastic defender alright, read the game brilliantly and dominated physically. Him and Adams were as good as any pairing Ive seen.
Original post by Andy98
I don't think attacking play has got better. I just think defensive abilities have drastically gone downhill.
On a club level, it can be explained by the mass injection of Sugar Daddy cash into clubs, enabling them to buy a quality squad which dominates any club which isn't owned by a Sugar Daddy. The fact that it's happening on an international level at this World Cup is baffling.
Perhaps it's something to do with the particular circumstances of each team: Spain were on the decline and under intense media pressure to perform, as they reported to be falling giants. Also, to use a cliché, they perhaps did not want it as badly as Holland, having already won three trophies in the last six years. Brazil's players, on the other hand, have a huge burden of expectation on their shoulders, so when you couple that with the loss of Thiago Silva and Neymar, it becomes very hard to bear.
Perhaps it's something to do with the particular circumstances of each team: Spain were on the decline and under intense media pressure to perform, as they reported to be falling giants. Also, to use a cliché, they perhaps did not want it as badly as Holland, having already won three trophies in the last six years. Brazil's players, on the other hand, have a huge burden of expectation on their shoulders, so when you couple that with the loss of Thiago Silva and Neymar, it becomes very hard to bear.
It all comes down to defending. The standard of defensive play in the Premier League has rapidly deteriorated since the mid-part of last decade, hence why we no longer get as far as La Liga/Bundesliga in European competitions. Defenders are altogether more rounded/cultured footballers nowadays and have a more offensive mindset which doesn't lend itself well to being compact.
Case in point: David Luiz.
Case in point: David Luiz.
Original post by C.Almasy
I don't think attacking play has got better. I just think defensive abilities have drastically gone downhill.
Yeah OK I should rephrase that: most teams have one great player but they rely on him too much, one example being Neymar
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It's obvious (and by the way, the fact that you mention a 10 year time frame is nothing short of coincidence). Football is really bad and boring right now. The standard is EXTREMELY low. All we have now are really rubbish players and really horrible teams. Football died 10 to 15 years ago, it has been dead and buried for such a long time now. The sport has become really terrible and very boring to watch. There is zero quality. There are no good players, no more legends sadly 
The reason it's so bad is because of the complete lack of any sort of quality. The standards have hit rock bottom. Such a shame.
The reason it's so bad is because of the complete lack of any sort of quality. The standards have hit rock bottom. Such a shame.Original post by Stinkum
It's obvious (and by the way, the fact that you mention a 10 year time frame is nothing short of coincidence). Football is really bad and boring right now. The standard is EXTREMELY low. All we have now are really rubbish players and really horrible teams. Football died 10 to 15 years ago, it has been dead and buried for such a long time now. The sport has become really terrible and very boring to watch. There is zero quality. There are no good players, no more legends sadly The reason it's so bad is because of the complete lack of any sort of quality. The standards have hit rock bottom. Such a shame.
The reason it's so bad is because of the complete lack of any sort of quality. The standards have hit rock bottom. Such a shame.What's the connection between (alleged) drop in quality an increase in these ridiculous scorelines?
Hammerings are due to quality differentials between teams not general quality.
Original post by Zürich
What's the connection between (alleged) drop in quality an increase in these ridiculous scorelines?
Hammerings are due to quality differentials between teams not general quality.
Hammerings are due to quality differentials between teams not general quality.
Like I always say, it's a case of rubbish players playing for really weak teams and scoring plenty of goals against each other (poor goals resulting from poor defending), that's why you get these amazing scorelines. Do you think Brazil would have conceded 7 goals when they had Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Carlos, Rivaldo? To be honest I don't think the quality differential comes into it. I'm quite bad at football, when I used to play with people, we would frequently get matches where one team would score in excess of 10 goals. It's exactly the same with modern professional football. The standards are so ridiculously low that you can't really expect anything good from any player or any team. Be prepared for really low quality football and really poor defending and general play.
Original post by Mackay
It all comes down to defending. The standard of defensive play in the Premier League has rapidly deteriorated since the mid-part of last decade, hence why we no longer get as far as La Liga/Bundesliga in European competitions. Defenders are altogether more rounded/cultured footballers nowadays and have a more offensive mindset which doesn't lend itself well to being compact.
Case in point: David Luiz.
Case in point: David Luiz.
By we, do you mean everybody besides Chelsea?
Also Terry is a good overall footballer, if he was faster he could probably play in central midfield without too many problems. I don't get why people like Luiz, Ramos and Kompany are romanticised, just because they're fast defenders and are tall but they make way too many mistakes. There are players around who are good at ball playing and have shown they are a good defender too. Varane and Cahill e.g. Mertesacker as well isn't too bad with the ball.
Original post by Stinkum
Like I always say, it's a case of rubbish players playing for really weak teams and scoring plenty of goals against each other (poor goals resulting from poor defending), that's why you get these amazing scorelines. Do you think Brazil would have conceded 7 goals when they had Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Carlos, Rivaldo? To be honest I don't think the quality differential comes into it. I'm quite bad at football, when I used to play with people, we would frequently get matches where one team would score in excess of 10 goals. It's exactly the same with modern professional football. The standards are so ridiculously low that you can't really expect anything good from any player or any team. Be prepared for really low quality football and really poor defending and general play.
I'm sorry, but it seems you clearly do not know what you are talking about.
I think the difference is the rise in top teams trying to pack the midfield and play this controlled, possession football. A lot of these hammerings start off as even games until one team scores a goal against the run of play on a counter attack, and then the losing team has no plan B. You end up with deeper lying midfielders and wing backs rushing forwards once it goes to 2-0 trying to salvage something but that's not their comfort zone and then they lose the ball and get caught at the back over and over. When all out attack meets a cagey team and aren't successfully stifled, it can get brutal.
Original post by cBay
It's because full-backs have become a lot more attack-minded, but teams still play 4-2-3-1, making it a 2-2-2-3-1. If you want your full-backs to push so far forward, then you should play 4-3-3 or 4-3-1-2. Simple. If not, the best teams will find you out.
That's not the only reason, although the fullback point is a fair one. This was seen in the Bayern vs Barca games, Robben and Muller raiding Alba. There's also the game in my sig if you want to see suspect defending from fullbacks with little protection from the DMs. The fullbacks being praised nowadays and the defenders being praised nowadays are because of their ball playing ability, not their defending. Luiz, Kompany, Ramos, Pique are seen as some of the worlds best CBs who regularly make errors.
You like the 4-3-3 as much as I do though. But this is a fair point, not the only reason but definitely a reason.
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