MH17 flight down in Ukraine
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Original post by DanB1991
I think that's the general consensus.
It's an accident in my opinion, I think the Pro-Russian separatist's thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian plane and now they and the Russian's are forced into PR damage control.
It's an accident in my opinion, I think the Pro-Russian separatist's thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian plane and now they and the Russian's are forced into PR damage control.
So they just happened to see a plane flying over and decided to shoot it down because they "thought" it was a Ukrainian plane? #doubt
The facts we know are:
- it was not a Ukrainian plane, but in fact a Boeing 777 passenger plane.
- It was on its way to Kuala Lumpur until airspace command (or whatever) lost contact with it.
- It was supposedly gunned down, but rest assured it's quite obvious by the looks of it.
- It was 33 000 ft in the sky
- If it was the pro-Russians who shot it down, where on Earth did they get the weaponry for it? And how could they know how to use it?
- The pro-Russians have also been said to have recovered the black box, but do they even know what a black box looks like?
To be honest with you I think it was the separatists too, HOWEVER I don't think it was an 'accident'
Original post by Monsieur Gamma
You can thank the USSR for that, a union Putin fully supports and quite possibly wants back.
Rationally speaking, it's quite easy for him to gain support from these countries, as you've noted because a lot of the people living there speak Russian.
Rationally speaking, it's quite easy for him to gain support from these countries, as you've noted because a lot of the people living there speak Russian.
You're confusing cause and effect. USSR was formed due to lots of relations between these nations, not the relations appeared because of USSR creation. Strictly speaking there wasn't even such a nation as Belarussian few centuries ago. It was almost the same nation. The same situation is with Ukrainians.
Almost every Russian family has some1 with Ukrainian or Belarussian roots. So be very careful speaking about such things and blaming Putin for things he has no relation to.
Original post by Monsieur Gamma
So they just happened to see a plane flying over and decided to shoot it down because they "thought" it was a Ukrainian plane? #doubt
The facts we know are:
- it was not a Ukrainian plane, but in fact a Boeing 777 passenger plane.
- It was on its way to Kuala Lumpur until airspace command (or whatever) lost contact with it.
- It was supposedly gunned down, but rest assured it's quite obvious by the looks of it.
- It was 33 000 ft in the sky
- If it was the pro-Russians who shot it down, where on Earth did they get the weaponry for it? And how could they know how to use it?
- The pro-Russians have also been said to have recovered the black box, but do they even know what a black box looks like?
To be honest with you I think it was the separatists too, HOWEVER I don't think it was an 'accident'
The facts we know are:
- it was not a Ukrainian plane, but in fact a Boeing 777 passenger plane.
- It was on its way to Kuala Lumpur until airspace command (or whatever) lost contact with it.
- It was supposedly gunned down, but rest assured it's quite obvious by the looks of it.
- It was 33 000 ft in the sky
- If it was the pro-Russians who shot it down, where on Earth did they get the weaponry for it? And how could they know how to use it?
- The pro-Russians have also been said to have recovered the black box, but do they even know what a black box looks like?
To be honest with you I think it was the separatists too, HOWEVER I don't think it was an 'accident'
They got it at an airbase they captured a few weeks ago http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=31f_1405616881
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Lumens
You're confusing cause and effect. USSR was formed due to lots of relations between these nations, not the relations appeared because of USSR creation. Strictly speaking there wasn't even such a nation as Belarussian few centuries ago. It was almost the same nation. The same situation is with Ukrainians.
Almost every Russian family has some1 with Ukrainian or Belarussian roots. So be very careful speaking about such things and blaming Putin for things he has no relation to.
Almost every Russian family has some1 with Ukrainian or Belarussian roots. So be very careful speaking about such things and blaming Putin for things he has no relation to.
Putin is Soviet ... or at least has some Communist spirit in him, as does a lot of people in former USSR satellite states. Did you know in Georgia, where Stalin was born, they still love him? .... USSR shaped peoples relations because it's something they can all relate to and it's NOTHING to be ashamed off.
I know for a fact Germans still can't express Pride because they feel ashamed of what happened to their country merely 80 odd years ago - but the fact is they shouldn't, they should learn from it.
And how on God's Earth do you know he has "no relation to" ...
Original post by Monsieur Gamma
- If it was the pro-Russians who shot it down, where on Earth did they get the weaponry for it? And how could they know how to use it?
- If it was the pro-Russians who shot it down, where on Earth did they get the weaponry for it? And how could they know how to use it?
As far as I know it's confirmed that atm they posses "Buk" missile system. And they got plenty of professional soldiers among them, so it's not a problem.
Original post by DaveSmith99
They got it at an airbase they captured a few weeks ago http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=31f_1405616881
There's always doubt. Even so they claimed these SAMs, doesn't mean they used them. I still feel this is not what it seems.
Original post by Lumens
As far as I know it's confirmed that atm they posses "Buk" missile system. And they got plenty of professional soldiers among them, so it's not a problem.
Yet there no SOLID proof/evidence they used it on the plane.
Original post by Monsieur Gamma
There's always doubt. Even so they claimed these SAMs, doesn't mean they used them. I still feel this is not what it seems.
It's the only explanation that's even remotely likely at the moment.
Original post by DaveSmith99
It's the only explanation that's even remotely likely at the moment.
'Remotely likely' to you. Anyway, I hope the US and Ukraine don't just carry out sanctions, I want to see something more severe, because otherwise they'll keep doing it, just like Suarez and his biting.
Original post by Monsieur Gamma
And how on God's Earth do you know he has "no relation to" ...
And how on God's Earth do you know he has "no relation to" ...
You told me that I should thank USSR (and Putin) for strong relations between some Slavic nations. I pointed out that USSR (or Putin) has nothing to do with it, because these relations were formed centuries ago. I doubt that Putin has some relation to the fact that I'm (mostly Russian) have some strong Ukrainian and Belarussian roots in my family, which make me experience for all these nations. And most people here do so.
Original post by Monsieur Gamma
Yet there no SOLID proof/evidence they used it on the plane.
I never said there was any.
Original post by Monsieur Gamma
Putin is Soviet ... or at least has some Communist spirit in him, as does a lot of people in former USSR satellite states. Did you know in Georgia, where Stalin was born, they still love him? .... USSR shaped peoples relations because it's something they can all relate to and it's NOTHING to be ashamed off.
I know for a fact Germans still can't express Pride because they feel ashamed of what happened to their country merely 80 odd years ago - but the fact is they shouldn't, they should learn from it.
And how on God's Earth do you know he has "no relation to" ...
I know for a fact Germans still can't express Pride because they feel ashamed of what happened to their country merely 80 odd years ago - but the fact is they shouldn't, they should learn from it.
And how on God's Earth do you know he has "no relation to" ...
Most Georgians still dislike Stalin.... albeit very nearly half the country thought he was a positive influence on the USSR as a whole.... but that's similar in many places in eastern europe. However we have many English politicians who are by modern standards war criminals but are now seen as national heroes by the majority.
Either way the German example is a moot point, they lost the war so should suffer shame? Obviously what the Nazi's did was terrible but more people actually lost their lives under the Japanese occupation in china and also more Russian died than in the whole holocaust due to Stalin.
Also on your earlier post concerning it's easy for Putin to get support from ex USSR countries.... well not necessarily.
He only has support in Georgia from the Russian population.... placed there during the USSR. The rest of the population don't
He only has support in Ukraine from the Russian population.... placed there during the USSR. The rest of the population don't
He only has support in Crimea from the Russian population.... placed there during the USSR. The rest of the population don't
Get the pattern? And it shadows over many places ex Warsaw pact countries. It's the realisation of soviet era ethnic contingency plans, which while not designed for this situation, actually play to Putin's advantage in certain area's.
Original post by Lumens
You told me that I should thank USSR (and Putin) for strong relations between some Slavic nations. I pointed out that USSR (or Putin) has nothing to do with it, because these relations were formed centuries ago. I doubt that Putin has some relation to the fact that I'm (mostly Russian) have some strong Ukrainian and Belarussian roots in my family, which make me experience for all these nations. And most people here do so.
Well you clearly didn't get what I mean.
I didn't 'thank' the USSR for anything ... I was only meaning to say relations and bonds between these Eastern countries were formed, or at least intensified, during the USSR era(!!!) ... Slaves have this naturally fraternity between them, and it shows. I NEVER said Putin was involved, you're just putting words into my mouth now.
These are the types of historical events or eras that mark us and make us who were are ... WW2 and WW1 affected us in such a way too, in fact in affect the whole of Europe.
Original post by Lumens
I never said there was any.
Why do you take things so literally?
Original post by Monsieur Gamma
Well you clearly didn't get what I mean.
I didn't 'thank' the USSR for anything ... I was only meaning to say relations and bonds between these Eastern countries were formed, or at least intensified, during the USSR era(!!!) ... Slaves have this naturally fraternity between them, and it shows. I NEVER said Putin was involved, you're just putting words into my mouth now.
These are the types of historical events or eras that mark us and make us who were are ... WW2 and WW1 affected us in such a way too, in fact in affect the whole of Europe.
I didn't 'thank' the USSR for anything ... I was only meaning to say relations and bonds between these Eastern countries were formed, or at least intensified, during the USSR era(!!!) ... Slaves have this naturally fraternity between them, and it shows. I NEVER said Putin was involved, you're just putting words into my mouth now.
These are the types of historical events or eras that mark us and make us who were are ... WW2 and WW1 affected us in such a way too, in fact in affect the whole of Europe.
I disagree... with the fall of the USSR many relations were made worse... thus the reason why so many of the ex USSR states split from the USSR in the first place. And you have to remember only three nations formed the USSR originally and you had a hell of a lot more created after it's end.
Take Ukraine for example.... it's never technically been it's own country since the 14th century. It actually created Rus which formed eventually in itself spawned the russian nation. Since then it has been fought over by varying different countries with a brief period in the 20th century attempting to be it's own nation before being crushed by the growing soviet union. It's technically always been Russian but also not Russian at the same time.
And many other nations were the same, contested regions, fought over by other nations and at some point under the Russian empire and eventually claimed by the soviet union. The USSR knew about these situations which is why it shipped peoples to other area's of the country and replaced them with ethnic Russians.
Many area's today have a certain level of resentment mixed with common history and pride of what happened under the USSR. However most of those proud individuals will be ethnic Russians due to their dominance.
Original post by DanB1991
Most Georgians still dislike Stalin.... albeit very nearly half the country thought he was a positive influence on the USSR as a whole.... but that's similar in many places in eastern europe. However we have many English politicians who are by modern standards war criminals but are now seen as national heroes by the majority.
Either way the German example is a moot point, they lost the war so should suffer shame? Obviously what the Nazi's did was terrible but more people actually lost their lives under the Japanese occupation in china and also more Russian died than in the whole holocaust due to Stalin.
Also on your earlier post concerning it's easy for Putin to get support from ex USSR countries.... well not necessarily.
He only has support in Georgia from the Russian population.... placed there during the USSR. The rest of the population don't
He only has support in Ukraine from the Russian population.... placed there during the USSR. The rest of the population don't
He only has support in Crimea from the Russian population.... placed there during the USSR. The rest of the population don't
Get the pattern? And it shadows over many places ex Warsaw pact countries. It's the realisation of soviet era ethnic contingency plans, which while not designed for this situation, actually play to Putin's advantage in certain area's.
Either way the German example is a moot point, they lost the war so should suffer shame? Obviously what the Nazi's did was terrible but more people actually lost their lives under the Japanese occupation in china and also more Russian died than in the whole holocaust due to Stalin.
Also on your earlier post concerning it's easy for Putin to get support from ex USSR countries.... well not necessarily.
He only has support in Georgia from the Russian population.... placed there during the USSR. The rest of the population don't
He only has support in Ukraine from the Russian population.... placed there during the USSR. The rest of the population don't
He only has support in Crimea from the Russian population.... placed there during the USSR. The rest of the population don't
Get the pattern? And it shadows over many places ex Warsaw pact countries. It's the realisation of soviet era ethnic contingency plans, which while not designed for this situation, actually play to Putin's advantage in certain area's.
Why bring up Japanese occupation of China and compare it the Holocaust? ... Do you think the Germans are as bothered about it than the killings of millions of Jews?
You'd be very surprised about how many people actually liked Stalin and his Soviet fraternity - very surpised. There are plenty of documentaries out there, in particular the Panorama one, that show you the extent of it. Why the **** do you think they kept Lenin in a Mausoleum in Moscow?? Surely you're going to want to take all reminders of the past away if you don't want to be reminded of it? Sure Lenin didn't kill people like Stalin did, but he sure is Communist to the teeth.
Go to Stalin's home town and they only just removed Stalin's statue ... and do you know why they did? Not because the people in the town didn't want it, it was because it was considered unethical by the government.
The majority of Crimea is Russian Speaking, so, in terms of soveingty, shouldn't it be part of Russia?
See, even these days there are similarities with some aspects of how tensions were during the cold war - notably political. Russia disagrees with the US because it is still Anti-Capitalist ... and what can it be if it isn't Capitalist? I'll let you guess that one.
Original post by Monsieur Gamma
Why bring up Japanese occupation of China and compare it the Holocaust? ... Do you think the Germans are as bothered about it than the killings of millions of Jews?
You'd be very surprised about how many people actually liked Stalin and his Soviet fraternity - very surpised. There are plenty of documentaries out there, in particular the Panorama one, that show you the extent of it. Why the **** do you think they kept Lenin in a Mausoleum in Moscow?? Surely you're going to want to take all reminders of the past away if you don't want to be reminded of it? Sure Lenin didn't kill people like Stalin did, but he sure is Communist to the teeth.
Go to Stalin's home town and they only just removed Stalin's statue ... and do you know why they did? Not because the people in the town didn't want it, it was because it was considered unethical by the government.
The majority of Crimea is Russian Speaking, so, in terms of soveingty, shouldn't it be part of Russia?
See, even these days there are similarities with some aspects of how tensions were during the cold war - notably political. Russia disagrees with the US because it is still Anti-Capitalist ... and what can it be if it isn't Capitalist? I'll let you guess that one.
You'd be very surprised about how many people actually liked Stalin and his Soviet fraternity - very surpised. There are plenty of documentaries out there, in particular the Panorama one, that show you the extent of it. Why the **** do you think they kept Lenin in a Mausoleum in Moscow?? Surely you're going to want to take all reminders of the past away if you don't want to be reminded of it? Sure Lenin didn't kill people like Stalin did, but he sure is Communist to the teeth.
Go to Stalin's home town and they only just removed Stalin's statue ... and do you know why they did? Not because the people in the town didn't want it, it was because it was considered unethical by the government.
The majority of Crimea is Russian Speaking, so, in terms of soveingty, shouldn't it be part of Russia?
See, even these days there are similarities with some aspects of how tensions were during the cold war - notably political. Russia disagrees with the US because it is still Anti-Capitalist ... and what can it be if it isn't Capitalist? I'll let you guess that one.
Firstly your the one who brought up the holocaust
I know for a fact Germans still can't express Pride because they feel ashamed of what happened to their country merely 80 odd years ago - but the fact is they shouldn't, they should learn from it.
Was merely commenting on what you said.
Liking communism and Stalin are completely different things. With Lenin as an individual it's much more balanced to respect as a politician (seeing he was involved in a bloody civil war that was committed by both sides). Stalin by comparison was heavily opposed by Lenin and a bloodthirsty tyrant. Communism is not automatically bad or bloody, Stalin however was and is pretty much the whole reason communism has a bad name in the west.
And most who like Stalin and communism surprisingly enough are those who benefited the most from it.... which unsurprisingly usually are the Russians.
Obviously you have area's of Georgia that like Stalin, he came from there, but historically due to the 'Georgian Affair' most Georgian's do not like him at all nor Russia by extension.
And historically concerning Crimea the only reason most of Crimea are ethnically Russian is because they killed or deported over 70% of the native population between the 1920's and 1950's. Most Russian's who live their now are descended from Russian who moved there in that time frame. It's akin to saying Leicester should be part of India because the majority of the population are Indian, that's really not how national integrity works.
Well Russia is mostly capitalist, just they like how the political formation of the USSR worked.... mostly because it was in their favour. And capitalism vs communism was a very minor factor causing the USSR vs USA cold war, it was mostly concerning economic, military and influential power.
(edited 9 years ago)
Those 2 planes (MH370 & MH17) are Boeing 777-200ER made in US. The products of US.
Something really fishy about these iron birds. Maybe the planes are designed to be controlled by many ways.
They can be controlled by the US satellites? Possibly.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Something really fishy about these iron birds. Maybe the planes are designed to be controlled by many ways.
They can be controlled by the US satellites? Possibly.
Posted from TSR Mobile
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