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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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Because the West Bank is plagued by illegal Israeli settlements.

When the children of Israel left slavery in Egypt, they immigrated to the land now known as Palestine. They founded the nation of Israel under Joshua, Moses' successor, after conquering the people groups who lived in that land. Much later, King David conquered the Jebusites, taking Jerusalem from them. The children of Israel are not the only people who have conquered other people groups and made settlements.

While it's not nice, other people groups are guilty of conquering and settling in other countries, including Muslim groups, such as the Muslims who invaded India (now India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh), Persia (now Iran), Egypt, Syria, and so on. Other groups, such as the Romans, conquered and settled as part of their Empire expansion. 'Christian' groups are also guilty of conquering and settling in other countries, such as England and Spain conquering and settling in America.

The US should stop providing Israel with military aid until the Jewish state cease any further illegal settlement building. Its quite unfair. They are like a fire spreading out to the right. If not for Hamas they would have the guts to expand the borders further.

That would be very hypocritical of the USA. The USA is a nation of immigrants who took the land from Native Americans. The differences between the USA and Israel are the following:

1. Israel used to be a nation; King David was Israel's 2nd. human king. Israel was destroyed by Babylon and rebuilt by Jewish people under the permission of King Cyrus the Great of Persia. Jesus was born in a regenerated Israel. Israel was destroyed again, this time by Rome. In 1948, Israel was regenerated again, with the help of the UK and the USA.
In a sense, the UK was like King Cyrus, in helping the Jewish people return to rebuild Israel.

The USA though is not a regeneration. It would be a regeneration if the descendants of the Native American tribes rose up and conquered the descendants of the European immigrants, taking the land back. Unlike the Jewish people who escaped and immigrated to other countries, the Native American people did not do that. Rather, most died, either by war or by the diseases brought by the Europeans. :frown:

2. The descendants of Israel coming back to their ancestors' homeland is a part of prophecy and has huge spiritual significance. Although King Solomon's temple was destroyed by the Babylonians and the second temple (where Jesus went) was destroyed by the Romans, Jerusalem is and will always be the holy city for Judaism. Some Jewish people who believe in G-d desire to rebuild the temple.

3. While there are many Jewish (and Arab) citizens of the USA, the USA is not a Jewish state. Israel is the only Jewish state. The land of Israel has always been fought over by various people groups. The reason Muslims want the land is because they regard Jerusalem as one of their holy cities, even though they already have Mecca and Medina. Judaism only has one holy city: Jerusalem. Islam basically stole Jerusalem from Judaism, and doesn't want to give it back.

Let's give a what if scenario. What if Mecca and (Saudi) Arabia was attacked by the USA? (Americans as far as I know do not plan on attacking Saudi Arabia; this is just a what if scenario.) What if Arabs fled from Arabia and Americans destroyed Mecca like Rome destroyed Jerusalem and called Arabia 'Nomadia'? What if later on, Jewish people came and began to live in Nomadia, including in Mecca (which kept its name but no longer has the kab'a, except for one side of the kab'a that managed to not be destroyed)?

Then, what if people began persecuting the Arab people who lived in their countries, and there was an Arab holocaust, like the Jewish holocaust? What if the Arabs wanted to return to their ancestors' homeland and rebuild Mecca, their #1 holy city? What should the Jewish people living in Mecca do? Should they fight the immigration of Arabs to Arabia? Should they welcome them and help them? Or, should they move?

Personally, I don't understand why the Arab people living in Palestine (which is named by the Romans after the Phillistines) did not welcome their Jewish cousins and help them escape European cruelty. However, the Grand Mufti Al-Husseini was actually an ally of Hitler's. Instead of loving and helping the Jewish immigrants who had survived such a dreadful persecution, they fought them. :frown:

The Arabs are thought to be the descendants of Ishmael, son of Abraham. The Jews are descendants of Jacob (Israel) son of Isaac, son of Abraham. However, most of the Arabs did not help the Jews who were being persecuted. :frown:

That is sad, in my opinion. Where is the love???

It is wrong of Israel to attack Gaza, but it is also wrong of Hamas to attack Israel. Instead of attacking each other, they should respect each other, care for each other, and agree to disagree on their differences. Again, Israel is the only Jewish state. There are many Arab states. Why don't the Arabs try to get along with the only Jewish state???

Well even if that's true Israel should stick with international law.

Do you want a one world government? Just curious.

Yeah as I said before its a sad state of affairs. The Palestinians in Gaza has no option but to join with Hamas. The neighbouring states don't seem to show any bit of real support for all their selfish reasons. That's one reason the Muslim Brotherhood was favoured in Egypt.

They do have the option to stop shooting rockets into Israel and to strive for peace. It's not their fault that Rome destroyed Israel and the Jewish people fled to other countries. The persecution of Jewish people in Europe is also not their fault. It's also not their fault that the Jewish people wanted to come to the land of their forefathers, like they did during King Cyrus' time. However, it is their fault if they are throwing rockets into Israel. That is not anymore acceptable than Israel shooting missiles into Gaza. The reason more Israelis are not killed is due to the Iron Dome (advanced technology). The Jewish people who believe in G-d thank Him for the Iron Dome, because without it, Hamas rockets would be killing Israeli civilians.

Both groups need to stop killing each other and need to respect each other. It's as simple as that. Both groups need to obey Jesus' commands to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37). If both groups do that, nobody would get killed. There is wisdom in Jesus' teachings to love.

Reply 881

felamaslen

Original post by Chindits

There was an "injustice" as you put it, despite the fact that they were offered 78% of mandatory 'palestine' and refused it because they wanted 100%?

They then launched a war and if Israel had not won, there would have been a second Holocaust.

Even Abbas admits this was a "mistake" as he put it.

A "mistake" is bumping the car behind you as you try to parallel park. This wasn't a "mistake" it was a calculated but catastrophic plan.

And this "mistake" was then made ten times greater as they continually lost wars waged on Israel.

I don't have any sympathy for their bankrupt cause.

Israel cannot lose a single war. If they had lost ANY wars, there would be no Israel - yet the Arabs on the other hand get to take swipe after swipe after swipe at Israel and STILL retain the 'victim' status from people like you.

I think you're missing the point. I agree completely that the wars to destroy Israel made the situation of the Arabs worse, but I still sympathise with the people who these affected. And you can't deny that in 1948 many people were evicted, forcibly, from their homes in the mandate. Whether or not this would have occurred if the Arab leaders at the time accepted the UN's partition plan is beside the point. All I'm pointing out is that there was (and still is) Arab suffering. I also sympathise with the millions of Germans who were evicted from Poland after the war, despite the fact that I find the Nazi regime at least as despicable as the ideology of Amin Al Husseini or Yasser Arafat or Ismail Haniyeh.

In other words, just because Palestinian leaders have chosen to fight for a ridiculous cause, doesn't mean there isn't a real cause to fight for once that one is abandoned. I fully support any hypothetical movement for a liberal democratic Palestinian state, although I do think it is very unlikely now.

Reply 882

Jammy Duel

Original post by tsr1269

Apparently, we can't post anymore images/videos of the Gaza casualties in this forum or we will eventually be banned. Not in spoilers or even as part of a news channel coverage.

I wonder why?

dbd1683beb.png3.7KB

Reply 883

Agapelove

Original post by felamaslen

I agree completely that the wars to destroy Israel made the situation of the Arabs worse, but I still sympathise with the people who these affected.

Agreed.

My heart breaks for them too. :frown:

I wish both groups would stop fighting each other and start loving (caring for and respecting each other in spite of their differences) like Jesus/Yeshua/Isa commands.

And you can't deny that in 1948 many people were evicted, forcibly, from their homes in the mandate. Whether or not this would have occurred if the Arab leaders at the time accepted the UN's partition plan is beside the point. All I'm pointing out is that there was (and still is) Arab suffering. I also sympathise with the millions of Germans who were evicted from Poland after the war, despite the fact that I find the Nazi regime at least as despicable as the ideology of Amin Al Husseini or Yasser Arafat or Ismail Haniyeh.

Understood and agreed. :frown:

In other words, just because Palestinian leaders have chosen to fight for a ridiculous cause, doesn't mean there isn't a real cause to fight for once that one is abandoned. I fully support any hypothetical movement for a liberal democratic Palestinian state, although I do think it is very unlikely now.

The thing is, religion comes into play here, on both sides. While granted many Israeli Jewish people do not believe in God, their ancestors did and some in their number still do. Jerusalem is their holy city.

As for Muslims, Islam took Jersualem from Judaism and has no desire to give it back to Judaism. Islam has 3 holy cities: Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem, thanks to Muhammad. If Muhammad had not alleged to have flown on a winged steed to Jerusalem and if Muhammad had not killed/enslaved some Jewish people and forced jizya (payment) on others in order for them to stay, and expelling others, I don't think Arabs would have such a hostility against the Jewish people. As it is, the hostility has only grown, especially with the regeneration/rebirth of Israel. The rebirth/regeneration of Israel has awakened the hatred of Islam for the Jews who don't believe Muhammad's claims.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 884

Rakas21

Most of the problems today can be traced back to the collapse of the Ottoman Empire and the way we and the French calves it up.

In hindsight it would have been better to split it by Sunni, Christian and Shia.

who cares?

18 Israeli soldiers dead so far in this ground offense? Epic.

All the same, its awful that quite of alot of civilians have died :s-smilie:

Wouldn't wish it on anyone in the world. Not even innocent Israeli citizens.

Reply 887

username945663

Original post by Inzamam99

Israeli warnings to Gazans, according to video evidence, give them around 60 seconds to evacuate.

Clearly that is enough time to wake up your son, pick up your infant daughter and help your ailing mother down the stairs.

Death to Israel.

Strange how some TSR members think those warnings are perfectly fine and its not Israel's fault that people have died.
Ah the educated part of society, goodness knows what the common street chav thinks

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 888

username945663

Israeli soldier got taken captive - http://live.aljazeera.com/Event/Gaza_Blog

Reply 889

felamaslen

Original post by Agapelove

I agree that this is a fundamental problem. Many people seem to think that religion is a veneer or an excuse which hides a deeper political problem, but in the case of Islamism, religion and politics are the same thing. Sadly the movement for Palestinian statehood has been hijacked by Islamists who want to see an end to Israel because they see Palestine as belonging to the Dar al-Islam. Still, these Islamists can eventually be defeated, but not through negotiation - through war.

The fervent expansionism of some extreme zionists is less of a problem, because it doesn't affect Israeli society at large (or, crucially, its leadership), which is secular.

Reply 890

meenu89

BBC reporting Hamas capture an Israeli soldier.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 891

Agapelove

Original post by felamaslen

True. Islam includes a built-in political system. Judaism does too, actually, though Reformed Judaism doesn't, from what I understand.

Sadly the movement for Palestinian statehood has been hijacked by Islamists who want to see an end to Israel because they see Palestine as belonging to the Dar al-Islam.

Sad but true.

Still, these Islamists can eventually be defeated, but not through negotiation - through war.

I think war only makes it worse. However, it can be noted that King David for example conquered Israel's enemies through war. As a Christian, I personally believe that post-Jesus, war is not the best nor is it obeying Jesus' commands to love enemies. However, other Christians disagree with me.

For the Israelis who do not follow Jesus Christ (which is, incidentally, most I think), Jesus' teachings to love one's enemies is not law.

The fervent expansionism of some extreme zionists is less of a problem, because it doesn't affect Israeli society at large (or, crucially, its leadership), which is secular.

True.

Reply 892

Bill_Gates

Original post by adamsmithqm

You're so wrong I can not even begin to explain.

Israel is a state that was formed on Palestinian land. That is not opinion, it is fact. Lets forget about all the other atrocities it has committed (namely the bombing of a couple of children on a beach not 4 days ago) and focus on this.

Please enlighten me as to what right Britain had to grant Palestinian land for the formation of the state of Israel.

Moving on, lets not cry over spilt milk. The state of Israel was created in violation of international law but created nonetheless. Now after a state has been formed on the land of another and it has driven Palestinians out of there own land you would think Israel has the common decency to stop at that. After all they have just claimed a large amount of land and that should be more than enough.

But no, they continue to this day to gradually take over Palestinian land through illegal settlements. Israel wants to reduce the Palestinian people to such a state that they have no option but to give into the oppressive regime.

This is not a war. That would assume both sides have an equal chance of winning. Israel is in itself one of the biggest military forces in the world backed by an even bigger superpower (USA). Tell me please, what do the Palestinians have?

This is not war, it is genocide.

Britain ruled the land.

There are never equal sides in a war. There are winners and losers. One follows a backward ideology one follows a hard working one.

Reply 893

iamu

interesting video

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10204411843641317

Reply 894

felamaslen

Original post by Agapelove

True. Islam includes a built-in political system. Judaism does too, actually, though Reformed Judaism doesn't, from what I understand.

If the Judaic law from three thousand years ago were applied to the modern state of Israel, it would neither be modern or gain any of my support! But this gives me some hope that Islam, too, can reform. I only hope it doesn't take as long. :lol:

(Actually, Islam has already reformed, since there are people today who can reconcile it with a belief in secular democracy. E.g. Israeli Muslims. That's why I'm careful to always make the distinction between Islamism and the religion, which I have no problem with.)

The problem with negotiation is that it only works with rational enemies. If your enemy doesn't accept your right to exist, then there is no choice but to declare war on them. Sometimes, though war is terrible, it can be better than decades of drawn-out negotiations which get nowhere and collapse into violence each time. Though I'm not a Christian, I do appreciate a lot of what Jesus said about turning the other cheek etc. However, Jesus would never have been able to defeat real evil in the world. Perhaps the proof of this is that mass slaughter and oppression has occurred under countless Christian regimes which claimed to be following his message. The problem was that the regimes' leaders were not rational people.

Reply 895

Chindits

Hamas leader refuses invitation for ceasefire talks

during the conversation with Al-Jazeera, the senior Hamas official asserted that Mashal had been invited to Cairo, but declined to go to discuss the Egyptian ceasefire initiative, which the group had days ago refused.

The Lebanon-based Al-Mayadeen network even claimed that it was Arab League chief Nabil el-Araby who had invited Mashal, but that the Hamas leader had said conditions were not yet ripe for such a visit.

Disgusting. They have truly lost the plot this time and have gone all out to kill as many of their own citizens as they can for propaganda value.

Reply 896

Agapelove

Original post by felamaslen

If the Judaic law from three thousand years ago were applied to the modern state of Israel, it would neither be modern or gain any of my support!

I have to admit, it would bother me the animal sacrifices that the Israelites did under the Law of Moses.

But this gives me some hope that Islam, too, can reform.

Good point. :smile:

I only hope it doesn't take as long. :lol:

The problem is that the sunnah is very important in Islam: the way of Muhammad, living like Muhammad. To many Muslims, Muhammad is considered to be the perfect example to mankind.

Well, some people called it reformed, or 'moderate'. I personally think moderate Muslims do not follow/obey all of the Qur'an and do not follow Muhammad's example in many ways. I'm not complaining. I have no problem with people not following the Qur'an or Muhammad's example (like his marrying a child and his enslaving people). I do have an issue with those who follow the violent parts of the Qur'an and do the bad things Muhammad did.

Many Jihadists follow the Qur'an and the sunnah more than moderate Muslims do.

The problem with negotiation is that it only works with rational enemies.

Good point.

If your enemy doesn't accept your right to exist, then there is no choice but to declare war on them.

I disagree, but it is easier to declare war on them than to try to prove to them that you do have a right to exist, that's for sure.

Sometimes, though war is terrible, it can be better than decades of drawn-out negotiations which get nowhere and collapse into violence each time.

That's a thought-provoking statement. I'd have to meditate on that.

Though I'm not a Christian, I do appreciate a lot of what Jesus said about turning the other cheek etc.

Cool

However, Jesus would never have been able to defeat real evil in the world.

Well, I see Jesus' commands to love enemies and turn the other cheek to be best explained by the following Martin Luther King Jr.'s quotes:

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral,
begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy.
Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it.
Through violence you may murder the liar,
but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth.
Through violence you may murder the hater,
but you do not murder hate.
In fact, violence merely increases hate.
So it goes.
Returning violence for violence multiplies violence,
adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness:
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness;
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate;
only love can do that.
Hate multiplies hate,
violence multiplies violence,
and toughness multiplies toughness
in a descending spiral of destruction....
The chain reaction of evil --
hate begetting hate,
wars producing more wars --
must be broken,
or we shall be plunged
into the dark abyss of annihilation.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength To Love, 1963

Perhaps the proof of this is that mass slaughter and oppression has occurred under countless Christian regimes which claimed to be following his message. The problem was that the regimes' leaders were not rational people.

I think the problem with the 'Christian' regimes which slaughtered and oppressed people is that those identifying as Christians were disobeying Jesus' commands to love their enemies and their neighbors.

However, yeah, the leaders were not rational either.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 897