MH17 flight down in Ukraine

Well seeing it turns Ukraine have known about the BUK system under separatist's control...

Also it is kind of Eurocontrols job to state if an airspace is safe or not, it's what it is there for.

If your going to blame anyone blame those two.

It's absolutely absurd to call this an 'accident' as RT and their fellow travellers have now switched to doing. There's nothing remotely accidental about shooting down a civil passenger jet flying at 33,000 ft with a SAM missile.

Another key point developing is that (as I speculated earlier on in the thread and was rubbished for it) it is looking increasingly likely that it had to be an expert team staffing the BUK, undoubtedly this was a Russian military unit. The BUK has now been returned to Russia for dismantling and destruction/burial.

It's so hard to see why this was anything but an act of war by the Russian state against the rest of the world.

"Pro-Russia separatists who are believed to have used the “Buk” antiaircraft missile system to shoot down a Malaysian airliner in eastern Ukraine probably needed Russian assistance to operate it, senior U.S. officials said Friday.The Russian-designed missile system, also known as an SA-11, “is a sophisticated piece of technology, and it strains credulity to think that it could be used by separatists without at least some measure of Russian support and technical assistance,“ Rear Adm. John Kirby told reporters at the Pentagon.

Whether Russian military personnel were involved, either in training Ukrainian militants or actually operating the system, is emerging as a key question for U.S. intelligence agencies and for crash investigators, the officials said. Russia has blamed the Ukrainian government for the crash ."

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-missile-buk-probe-20140718-story.html

Maybe you shouldn't be listening to the Americans and actually making a judgement for yourself then.


Posted from TSR Mobile

CCTV, Euronews and Al Jazeera have all carried reports discussing the exact same point. It would appear that outside the deluded bubble of Russia TV propaganda, most people are curious about exactly how a bunch of brainless swaggering fascist thugs in combat fatigues could take possession of sophisticated weaponry like this without training or the full assistance of a Russian field military unit. The latter is the obviously plausible scenario. The fact that this Russian unit also appears to be utterly incompetent is all par for the course.

If you look up the buk specifications, it seems that any intelligent person could operate this system. It's only sophisticated in terms of its capabilities. This is not surprising when you consider that the weapon was designed in the context of a Soviet Union that did not put huge importance on technical capabilities in its weapon operators. A lot of other soviet era weaponry is also very simple to use which it one reason that it has become so prevalent in war zones around the world.

I think you will also find that a lot of the rebels do have military backgrounds.


Posted from TSR Mobile

I'll think I will trust the Rear Admiral over you. Nothing personal.

The fact that the Russians have recovered the BUK vehicle demonstrates how connected they are to the rebels/terrorists.

Yes it is. I was born in the UK not the Ukraine. Chance is incredibly important. If it rains when I attack and I hadn't anticipated it because it rarely rains, well that's chance in war. If a plane is shot down and happens to be a commercial airline instead of a military aircraft, well guess what that's chance.

If I put up a Russian military figure giving his opinion on it would you believe him? No. So why do you believe an American military figure on this? Just go look it up. The buk system is really simple. It's basically point and shoot.

The buk came from the Ukrainians though. The Russians did not supply the weaponry so why would they supply a team? Total disconnect in logic there.


Posted from TSR Mobile

You are correct, soviet technology was made to be easily mastered by anyone who has two brain cells, this is because the soviet military system was based on conscription, men were made to serve for 2 years so they needed to be trained quickly and easily in using weapons. Soviet technology is simple but effective.

And highly prone to operator error - in this case I would suggest discriminating primary radar scope signatures and tracks between different aircraft types, is not something a rookie radar operator would be able to achieve or even understand given it's significance.

For this reason alone, it logically fits rebel operators with minimal training and not an experienced Russian crew - giving plausible deniability for the Russians.

The Buk system is designed to be operated autonomously, (it also has the capability to be integrated into a command and control area management system) in this case I would also suggest the operators were not in communication with Kiev ATC's (or anyone else for that matter) and operating in isolation for obvious reasons.

It's absolutely absurd to call this an 'accident' as RT and their fellow travellers have now switched to doing. There's nothing remotely accidental about shooting down a civil passenger jet flying at 33,000 ft with a SAM missile.

Another key point developing is that (as I speculated earlier on in the thread and was rubbished for it) it is looking increasingly likely that it had to be an expert team staffing the BUK, undoubtedly this was a Russian military unit. The BUK has now been returned to Russia for dismantling and destruction/burial.

It's so hard to see why this was anything but an act of war by the Russian state against the rest of the world.

Ok. I meant who are the official body.

Ukraine does not have the military capacity to take back Crimea because they would have to fight the Russians.

Iso why would they supply a team? Total disconnect in logic there.


Posted from TSR Mobile

Where the hell are you getting this information from? This isn't the cold war, Russia aren't automatically the bad guys just because they are on tv.

You are as capable of using Google as I am. I didn't say they are the bad guys because RT is biased, I am putting forwards plausible hypotheses based on known past conduct of the Russian armed forces since the fall of the Soviet Union and given the ways in which the Putin oligarchy behaves. A gangster state remains a gangster state, no matter how much oil and gas they sell, or how much they invest in a compliant media machine.

You seem to inhabit a reality-free zone.

The facts are that Russian soldiers and FSB operatives have been directly involved in subversion in Ukraine since the get-go. There have been numerous cases of Russian soldiers being identified operating there and many actions have been co-ordinated directly from Moscow. There is no reason to think that the use of SAM missiles would be any different.

In fact, it's more logical to believe that a Russian team would be involved in staffing the launcher. Why would Moscow risk sending hi-tech weapons systems across to the rebels without proper supervision? Much more sensible to send them in with military or deniable pseudo-civilian-but-in-fact-military units.

I suspect this is a classic case of incompetent Russian soldiers performing callous and gung-ho acts. Maybe they were drunk at the time - drunkenness remains an endemic problem throughout the Russian armed forces, partly as a side effect of the brutalising experiences young soldiers go through their during their 'training'.

You seem to inhabit a reality-free zone.

The facts are that Russian soldiers and FSB operatives have been directly involved in subversion in Ukraine since the get-go. There have been numerous cases of Russian soldiers being identified operating there and many actions have been co-ordinated directly from Moscow. There is no reason to think that the use of SAM missiles would be any different.

In fact, it's more logical to believe that a Russian team would be involved in staffing the launcher. Why would Moscow risk sending hi-tech weapons systems across to the rebels without proper supervision? Much more sensible to send them in with military or deniable pseudo-civilian-but-in-fact-military units.

I suspect this is a classic case of incompetent Russian soldiers performing callous and gung-ho acts. Maybe they were drunk at the time - drunkenness remains an endemic problem throughout the Russian armed forces, partly as a side effect of the brutalising experiences young soldiers go through their during their 'training'.