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Ways in which men are oppressed in the UK.

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Original post by DiddyDec
If the statistics were reversed feminists would be all over these subjects like flies to hot ****.

You mean women's rights groups would covers things that harmed women? Omg, stop the presses.

Quite often the reason women attempt suicide is a cry for help so others around them can see that they are struggling with life but do not feel they have the strength to tell anyone. They are aware that there are people that love them and want to help them but don't know how to get that help. This is not the case for most men.


Source



Men feel as if there is no other solution to their problem and that nobody can help them and nobody loves them. The suicide rate for men is 3 times higher than that for women and has been for a long time.


Statistics indicate that males die much more often by means of suicide than do females; however, reported suicide attempts and thoughts are much more common among females than males.[3][4]



The general social structure that we see today also does not improve the outlook that men have on the world. Men are seen as weak for showing their emotions and therefore don't show their emotions until it is too late.

Those are things called strict gender roles. Which the west in general have become way less strict with men acting more "feminine" becoming a lot more acceptable than it used to be.

They are not encouraged to speak about the problems they are having and from a young age are told that "boy don't cry" and "man up".


You're telling me things I already know about as if gender roles are news to me. :rolleyes:


Women are encouraged to show their emotions and the express how they feel.

No women are seen as weak and emotional and therefore acting like that is acting like a girl. :rolleyes:

If we truly want equality which I'm sure you are in favor of surely this issue needs to be addressed as an area of serious concern.

It called gender roles, people have been fighting them for quite some time.

Now, on to work place deaths. Does it not worry you that 96% of the workplace fatalities (Source:http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/tables/index.htm) were men.

No it makes sense given the job risks.

Why is it that men are working dangerous jobs than women?

Traditional physical labour and natural biological strength.
Oh I forgot you only want to be practical and acknowledge biological differences when it gives you an advantage right.

Surely we should have a 50/50 split of gender for these dangerous jobs as that would be equality.

Surely men should be getting raped just as much in society. Do you seriously expect people to promote females taking high risk jobs so they can die equally? Instead of you know, making the workplace safer for anyone no matter their gender, and fighting with labour unions and workplace rights? What are you on about?:rolleyes:


That would be a public outcry if 96% of workplace fatalities were women

You have no way of knowing that. :rolleyes:
What would this public outcry for men achieve exactly? Are they all going to stop working? No they want protections and safety measures which UNIONS already fight for, what are you not getting? This topic is already covered by people WHO ACTUALLY CARE. :rolleyes:


, but somehow men are more "disposable" than women. Surely something should be done about this?

No they are not more disposable, nothing you've provided proves such a thing. You also omit any mention of class and race factors in these jobs, who's doing these dangerous jobs? Middle class? No, it's jsut as simple as society hates men, right.

These issues are about equality and should be addressed by feminism.

By your logic any issue where the statistic isn't 50/50 should be addressed by feminism. That's quite of lot of work given the low number of us.

If only men dominated society and still do and had power positions giving them a voice to address these issues. OH WAIT.

The issues of gender roles ARE addressed by feminism. You're clearly not very well read.

The issues of work place deaths and mental health are addressed directly by labour unions and charities.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8117278.stm

Workplace deaths are not that common here, they are actually at a low. So why aren't you happy about this improvement?
The information in this document relates to the latest 'full-year' statistics on fatal injuries in the workplace, for 2013/14.

The provisional figure for the number of workers fatally injured in 2013/14 is 133, and corresponds to a rate of fatal injury of 0.44 deaths per 100 000 workers.

The figure of 133 worker deaths in 2013/14 is 19% lower than the average for the past five years (164). The latest rate of fatal injury of 0.44 compares to the five-year average rate of 0.56.

The finalised figure for 2012/13 is 150 worker fatalities, and corresponds to a rate of 0.51 deaths per 100 000 workers.

Due to the fluctuation of recent years, it is currently too early to confirm a further stepped improvement in fatality rates.

There were 70 members of the public fatally injured in accidents connected to work in 2013/14 (excluding railways-related incidents).



Because feminism promotes equality for both men and women. Apparently.


Men aren't oppressed because of their gender. Women have been throughout history and still are in many places globally. Hence why feminism a movement founded to fight for WOMEN'S rights, because men already had them, focuses on women. How about you mobilise and attempt to help a labor union instead of just pretending to care so you can try and find a reason to bash feminism. You couldn't come across as any less genuine here, you don't really care about these issues hence why nobody takes you seriously. If you want to talk about workplace deaths, feminism in not the context anyone seriously concerned would be placing them in. You're clearly using these unfortunate deaths to frame them in an agenda filled drivel as opposed to mobilising people to help you'd rather sit on an internet forum bashing feminism for the most laughable reasons and then wonder why no one's doing anything about this.
(edited 9 years ago)
Neither gender are oppressed in the UK. Discriminated against, sure.
Original post by Miss Ann Dairy
Succeed at it, women attempt is in equal numbers. )


Completely different psychological causes. Also anyone would agree committing suicide is worse than attempting suicide.

Farrell raised a good point supported by other studies.

People who attempt suicide usually do so as a cry out for help or attention but do actually believe there is someone to take notice if they attempt to take their own life. Thus taking pills, hanging etc.

Those who commit suicide usually do so as they feel like there's no point in existing, they have failed or they have no-one to support them or take notice. Thus jumping off bridges, carbon monoxide poisoning etc.
Original post by Miss Ann Dairy
...


You keep saying that feminism is female rights group. However the ethos behind feminism is gender equality. That means they fight for equality of both genders, men and women. Not just women. Are you saying that feminism is just for women?
Original post by DiddyDec
The severe lack of shelter for men who are victims of domestic abuse. There are thousands for women, but only a handful for men. Men are just as likely to be a victim of domestic abuse as women, yet they receive little to no support. There 33 shelters for me, of which 18 are gay only. However there are around 4,000 for women.



I'm sorry you what now? over 90% of domestic violence crimes are against women, so no it's not "just as likely"
Reply 85
Original post by tengentoppa
No-one is oppressed. It's the UK not China.

All very well saying that but in the face of legislation that discriminates against males, it is hardly a supportable statement.
Original post by NancyRoseC
I'm sorry you what now? over 90% of domestic violence crimes are against women, so no it's not "just as likely"


That was a mistype the correct statistic was for married men. 3.4% of married women reported domestic abuse, which is the same as the statistic of men. It is obviously higher in all other areas of heterosexual relationships.
Reply 87
Original post by NancyRoseC
I'm sorry you what now? over 90% of domestic violence crimes are against women, so no it's not "just as likely"

Oh dear, another 'student' who parrots what feminists say without checking on the data first.
Original post by Darien
Oh dear, another 'student' who parrots what feminists say without checking on the data first.


I know, it's all too common :/

The stats also differ country to country. I think it was sweden who had 50-55% of all cases had men being the victim.

Also the stats seem to show that out of non married couples women are slightly more likely of suffering domestic violence.

With married couples it goes from almost the same in terms of domestic violence but married men do seem to suffer more domestic abuse (aka controlling and non violent abusive behaviour).
Original post by Darien
Oh dear, another 'student' who parrots what feminists say without checking on the data first.


I'm sorry, i genuinely don't want to be offensive, I was reading from somewhere else which says:

"Women are much more likely than men to be victimized by a current or former intimate partner.5Women are 84 percent of spouse abuse victims and 86 percent of victims of abuse at the hands of a boyfriend or girlfriend and about three-fourths of the persons who commit family violence are male"

(
http://www.futureswithoutviolence.org/content/action_center/detail/754)
Original post by Darien
Oh dear, another 'student' who parrots what feminists say without checking on the data first.


and here
http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticViolenceFactSheet(National).pdf

85% of domestic violence victims are women

But I guess all sources are different :/
Original post by Darien
Oh dear, another 'student' who parrots what feminists say without checking on the data first.


ps, why is "student" in speech marks? I'm most definitely a student, no doubt about that
Reply 92
Original post by NancyRoseC
ps, why is "student" in speech marks? I'm most definitely a student, no doubt about that

Because, strictly speaking, a student is someone who studies.

Simply repeating what other people have said about something is not studying: it is parroting.
Before I get to some of the better points you make

Original post by imtelling
Men are [...] forced to pay punitive costs to support the children they are not allowed to see -- payments which, a lot of the time at least, will be squandered on the mothers latest hair do or girls holiday away to Magaluf.


That's just absolute bull****. Total and utter *******s right to the core of it. Maybe some 0.00001% do this. If a mother is in receipt of money from the father then it's almost certainly because she needs it to support the child. And what do you propose to do, not pay the costs? That punishes the child, not the mother, because the reality is that most mothers do not squander this money.

The thing is a lot of the issues you identify are very valid. Others aren't. For example the one I mentioned just a moment ago, as well as your point about the White Feather Movement; the White Feather Movement was not tied to feminism. It was done by women, yes, but not by feminists. It wouldn't even be internally consistent with feminist ideology and analysis to be a part of that movement in the first place.

You don't do it in this post, you may do in another post in this thread but I don't have the time or energy to read every post in this thread, but most of the users who make similar arguments as you did in your first post then go on to argue that feminism is the cause of these issues. Even if you don't, others have done in this thread so I'll go ahead and take a few minutes to demolish that argument here.

Most of the problems raised here are a result of gender roles. For example when you say child custody is biased in favour of women: Absolutely it is, because women are seen as mothers first and foremost (and people and/or workers second) while men are seen as the primary breadwinners, which in turn explains your other point about child support. In regards to male victims of domestic violence (an issue I'm particularly passionate about) and the high suicide rate, again that's a result of gender roles: men are expected to be tough, resilient, to bottle up their emotions, to not express themselves, to seek help, to show weakness or let the cracks show. When men step outside of that gender role and do those things, when men do come forward to police about domestic violence for example, they are mocked and told they are being pussies or some such term. This is what you talk about when you say "Being told to 'man up' and not complain when they dare to speak up about anti-male discrimination." Again: Gender roles. They are not fulfilling the gender role society says men are supposed to play.

When we talk about the view of men as expendable, which obviously links in with your other point about workplace fatalities, you can again place this firmly in patriarchal gender roles about pre-conceived notions about how men and women are and how they ought to each behave. Again looking at this from a gender role perspective: Women are fragile little flowers incapable of hard labour, and it would be undignified for them do so, and anyway they ought really to be at home cooking, cleaning, or making babies. They can't be operating machinery and being housewives, after all.

And when we talk about the number of workplace deaths being unbalanced gender-wise, that's because men take a disproportionate amount of the dangerous jobs. And that's not because women don't want to take them: for example discrimination against women in the construction industry (one of the major industries where workplace deaths happen) is well-documented (See here, here, or here, for example) This is partially again gender roles: women are weak and incompetent and unable to perform manly work like construction because we need manly men to do men work.

And gender roles are pretty much the central thing feminism attacks. Feminists reject pre-conceived notions about how men and women 'ought' to behave; that women 'should' be housewives, that men 'should' be the stoic breadwinner. The feminist view is that every man and woman has a right to decide for themselves what they want for themselves and that society and others have no right to decide for us.

The solution to the problems caused by gender roles is not more gender roles as 'Mens Rights' supporters so often advocate. It's the total elimination of gender roles and addressing many of the other wider problems raised by a feminist analysis of society. The solution is more feminism, not less.
Reply 94
Original post by imtelling
Lets start with child custody:

Men are tremendously discriminated against in family courts. Women win 93% of child custody battles, and despite having hardly any visiting rights, are also forced to pay punitive costs to support the children they are not allowed to see -- payments which, a lot of the time at least, will be squandered on the mothers latest hair do or girls holiday away to Magaluf.

Would like to hear some more examples?


Ways in which men are oppressed in the uk:
----------------------------------------------------
( will edit list when new suggestions come in )

1: Child custody heavily biased in favour of women.

2: No support for male victims of domestic violence.

3: Discrimination in prison system, with men more likely to be jailed and serve longer sentences.

4: 84% of all homeless people are men.

5: Men more likely to commit suicide than women.

6: 96% of work related fatalities are men.

7: Being told to 'man up' and not complain when they dare to speak up about anti-male discrimination.

8: Men have no anonymity if they are accused of rape, and so false rape allegations routinely ruin mens lives and careers.

9: Divorce settlements are heavily discriminatory against men. Men are routinely ordered to hand over huge sums of their personal wealth, even to blatant gold diggers. ( see the Paul Mcarthy/Heather Mills settlement )

10: Men are seen as expendable by society; during the First World War, for example, feminists tried to shame men into joining the army by calling them cowards. Google the 'white feather movement'

11: Education system is female centric; focusing on teaching methods which cater to female strengths.

12: Young boys natural boisterous behaviour is considered a mental disorder, called ADHD. Boys are drugged for not acting like girls.

13: Men are told they are losers and sexually deficient if they dare speak up against the oppression which effects them.


I think Discrimination would be a better word than Oppression.


NIGHT LIFE
Most nightlife is catered towards women with many women being allowed in for free.
women are also favoured for the music tastes. the dress code. racial discrimination (for example there some racist club door policies that would allow women of colour in but not men of colour). if the club is close to being full with capacity women will be allowed in still whilst men are thrown away.

Radio
Music that is considered "angry young man music" favoured by male audiences is marginalised.

When men are treated with suspicion around children when women are not.

Men do not get free stuff in the same way women do for just being attractive.

"Women and children first!" men are less valuable.

Women have women only scholarships. men do not.

Mens feelings never have to be considered. women's feelings always must be considered.

Men work longer and die younger.

Men do all the hard labour. Every Brick you see is there because a man put it there.

Men receive no support to be stay at home dads. they are penalised for it.

Men dont have access to contraceptive pills.

Mens Cancer's are taken Less seriously than females.

Toilets. Women's toilets are open for longer in shopping centres.

no one is expected to care about men. everyone is expected to care about women.

Men are always held accountable for their behaviour. they can never blame anything on hormones or anything else for that matter.

Mens masculinity can be taken into question. womens femininity cannot.

Men are punished for flirting in the work place. women are not.

We are told genital mutilation for men is a health benefit whereas FGM is campaigned against irrelevant of its attack on 3rd world indigenous peoples traditions.

Men are expected to defend themselves. women are not

there is no support for male rape victims

when women sexually assault men it is considered funny by society.

men have to meet set standards in the military. special exceptions on physical performances are made for women who choose to join and are not capable.

Statutory rape of men is rarely taken seriously

Violence against men is considered acceptable by society.

when men are assaulted by women in public society finds it funny.

society considers men to blame for the actions of women.

other than anger. all other emotions of men are discouraged. and even anger is discouraged now.

sexism is considered not applicable to men.

men cannot call for help in a fight. especially if they start it. women can.

it is considered a bad thing for men to be together in a group and are often associated with criminal behaviour.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 95
Original post by noobynoo
1: Child custody heavily biased in favour of women.
Obviously. How can a man breast feed a baby?

with baby formula. most girls use it nowadays because they favour their breasts cosmetic appeal over their babies development.

Original post by noobynoo

2: No support for male victims of domestic violence.
There is. But lets face it women don't rape men so much.

there is a difference between domestic violence and rape.
domestic violence is much more common than rape.

Original post by noobynoo

3: Discrimination in prison system, with men more likely to be jailed and serve longer sentences.
90% of murderers are men.

you have not debunked or provided a valid argument against this statement. this is not even a counter argument.

Original post by noobynoo

4: 84% of all homeless people are men.
99% of prostitutes are women.

once again. not a counter argument.

but you could argue that men are also discriminated against in the sex industry by not having enough demand to provide them with jobs in the sex industry.

Original post by noobynoo

5: Men more likely to commit suicide than women.
How is that discrimination?


the fact is not discriminating in itself but it is evidence of discrimination

Original post by noobynoo

6: 96% of work related fatalities are men.
100% of pregnancy related fatalities are women.

men cannot get pregnant.
women can work.


Original post by noobynoo

7: Being told to 'man up' and not complain when they dare to speak up about anti-male discrimination.
Man up. Stop complaining about anti-male discrimination.

you've just proved the OP's point.
Original post by NancyRoseC
ps, why is "student" in speech marks? I'm most definitely a student, no doubt about that

He is being harsh, assuming that you are taught critical thinking. You have to 1. check the sources, the PDF files, which refer to 'family' cases.
Be wary of media propaganda http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKXVcUSBKH4

2. Data should be directly quotable from Govt. sources.
UK: Office of national Stats (ONS) latest figures showed 39:61 M:F ratio, year before that was 40:60. Next year's figures could be 35:65 because... legal funding has been cut, unless DV is involved.
DV sometimes falsely, is used as a bargaining tool by women during
divorce/child visitation & men less likely to report skews data. (stats in Mankind)

In USA in 2010, men were the majority of DV (called IPV in USA) in Govt stats; so this was researched & published in a journal. Won't attach pdf so linked
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/233731282_The_National_Intimate_Partner_and_Sexual_Violence_Survey_and_The_Perils_of_Advocacy
Edit:
WRT to "Women are 84 percent of spouse abuse victims and 86 percent of victims of abuse at the hands of a boyfriend or girlfriend" Following the data at your futureswithoutviolence links to http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvs02.pdf. On P15 of 25, table 2.3 we can see 84.3% spouse & 85.9% for Female. It is a subset where looking at the TOTALS for Family & NonFamily member victims = 54.9% & 58.4% for males.
Hence not showing full info misleads. Like saying 75% of a univerity's STEM classes are male - "muhsojiny", ignoring that men are only 40% of the total at Uni.

Original post by imtelling
...

Surprised no one has mentioned the right to choose to be circumcised, like girls.

Also Battered Wife Syndrome as a defence for murder. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6s7V3gm__8 "Can you imagine a man getting an award for killing a woman?" wrt Kiranjit Ahluwalia for setting husband on fire.

Some more ideas here http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/government-tyranny/he-who-pays-the-piper-calls-the-tune-or-does-he/
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by forfrosne
Before I get to some of the better points you make

That's just absolute bull****. Total and utter *******s right to the core of it. Maybe some 0.00001% do this. If a mother is in receipt of money from the father then it's almost certainly because she needs it to support the child. And what do you propose to do, not pay the costs? That punishes the child, not the mother, because the reality is that most mothers do not squander this money.

I think the point is that a Non Resident Parent's wages can be garnished before tax; but it is not the right of the NRP to see their child(ren). The original CSA was made, so men could be chased to pay, rather than the Govt.

Original post by forfrosne

The thing is a lot of the issues you identify are very valid. Others aren't. For example the one I mentioned just a moment ago, as well as your point about the White Feather Movement; the White Feather Movement was not tied to feminism. It was done by women, yes, but not by feminists. It wouldn't even be internally consistent with feminist ideology and analysis to be a part of that movement in the first place.
You don't do it in this post, you may do in another post in this thread but I don't have the time or energy to read every post in this thread, but most of the users who make similar arguments as you did in your first post then go on to argue that feminism is the cause of these issues. Even if you don't, others have done in this thread so I'll go ahead and take a few minutes to demolish that argument here.

Agreed, but many on TSR are not at that stage about women's nature.


Original post by forfrosne
Most of the problems raised here are a result of gender roles. For example when you say child custody is biased in favour of women: Absolutely it is, because women are seen as mothers first and foremost (and people and/or workers second) while men are seen as the primary breadwinners, which in turn explains your other point about child support. In regards to male victims of domestic violence (an issue I'm particularly passionate about) and the high suicide rate, again that's a result of gender roles: men are expected to be tough, resilient, to bottle up their emotions, to not express themselves, to seek help, to show weakness or let the cracks show. When men step outside of that gender role and do those things, when men do come forward to police about domestic violence for example, they are mocked and told they are being pussies or some such term. This is what you talk about when you say "Being told to 'man up' and not complain when they dare to speak up about anti-male discrimination." Again: Gender roles. They are not fulfilling the gender role society says men are supposed to play.

When we talk about the view of men as expendable, which obviously links in with your other point about workplace fatalities, you can again place this firmly in patriarchal gender roles about pre-conceived notions about how men and women are and how they ought to each behave. Again looking at this from a gender role perspective: Women are fragile little flowers incapable of hard labour, and it would be undignified for them do so, and anyway they ought really to be at home cooking, cleaning, or making babies. They can't be operating machinery and being housewives, after all.

And when we talk about the number of workplace deaths being unbalanced gender-wise, that's because men take a disproportionate amount of the dangerous jobs. And that's not because women don't want to take them: for example discrimination against women in the construction industry (one of the major industries where workplace deaths happen) is well-documented (See here, here, or here, for example) This is partially again gender roles: women are weak and incompetent and unable to perform manly work like construction because we need manly men to do men work.

And gender roles are pretty much the central thing feminism attacks. Feminists reject pre-conceived notions about how men and women 'ought' to behave; that women 'should' be housewives, that men 'should' be the stoic breadwinner. The feminist view is that every man and woman has a right to decide for themselves what they want for themselves and that society and others have no right to decide for us.

Feminism enforces a part of the gender role - the part of men's responsibility & frees women's role only.
http://www.direitosdoshomens.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Photo-Wiki-Success-Object.jpg Warren Farrell, 3rd man has campaigned for this for >30 years!
Men still have (legal) responsibilities, women are presented with choices. No one says a marriage failed because the wife didnt make enough money, give enough support, was not doing it right in the bedroom, was not sensitive enough, or made babies by other men but did not let the supporting 'father' know. Its ALWAYS MENS FAULT. There is the reduced property rights; limited parental rights and diminished legal rights; NON-EXISTENT REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS of men who must endure the divorce industry.
Believe me, men are deciding what they want - they are walking away from women, no not celibacy but relationships & life goals (MGTOW). An extreme e.g. is Herbivore Man & Dried Fish Woman.

1. Name one obligation that women have towards men?
2. Name one right feminism has won for men, bringing equality? There is >10 male issues that are v important.
3. Do you know feminists/NUS opinion & arguments for blocking University's to have a Men's Officer, even a Gender Officer?

Original post by forfrosne

The solution to the problems caused by gender roles is not more gender roles as 'Mens Rights' supporters so often advocate. It's the total elimination of gender roles and addressing many of the other wider problems raised by a feminist analysis of society. The solution is more feminism, not less.

4. Source of this advocacy?
5. What " wider problems raised by a feminist analysis of society" & why just have an ideologue's view with its gynocentric biasness? That censors men & their pain & right to speak about double standards.

--
Apologies if I don't reply soon, or well my course (clinicals) finishes Friday.
Reply 98
Original post by forfrosne
...the White Feather Movement; the White Feather Movement was not tied to feminism. It was done by women, yes, but not by feminists. It wouldn't even be internally consistent with feminist ideology and analysis to be a part of that movement in the first place.

I have often pointed out that the suffragettes were not the feminist movement. (There were some overlaps, just as there was one Welsh suffragette body that banned feminists.)

The White Feather campaign was largely promoted by those who were suffragettes: the same women who demanded the vote for wealthy women also demanded that poor men went off to die for them.

However, most feminists declare that the suffragettes were feminists so it is hardly surprising when someone today blames the White Feather Campaign (not 'Movement') on feminists, especially since some who took part clearly were feminists.

I've not read a huge amount of early feminist literature but I see nothing inconsistent in the writings of people like Jenny Hericourt and Lillie Blake with pushing (lower-class) men to go and die for (upper-class) women in war. The whole rape-hysteria stuff can be traced back to lies about Germans raping Belgian women, just to get men to sign up for a war that never made sense.

Original post by forfrosne
When we talk about the view of men as expendable, which obviously links in with your other point about workplace fatalities, you can again place this firmly in patriarchal gender roles...

Yes you CAN blame "patriarchal gender roles" (I've tried understanding that phrase to get some consistency and never managed to achieve it) but when it comes down to it, there is little reason not to blame it on matriarchal gender roles instead, or even on the essentialism of nature, or perhaps on the tooth fairy.

Original post by forfrosne
... looking at this from a gender role perspective: Women are fragile little flowers incapable of hard labour, and it would be undignified for them do so, and anyway they ought really to be at home cooking, cleaning, or making babies. They can't be operating machinery and being housewives, after all.

It took ten years after men had general suffrage in Britain for women to have general suffrage. It took less than ten years campaigning by the Women's Liberation Movement (also not to be confused with feminism) to get a raft of new legislation on equal pay for equal work (for women, it took longer to get it for men), equal opportunity on promotion at work, effectively banning men's clubs, etc.

These huge changes each took under ten years.

Yet feminists would have us believe that after 160 years of feminism, and a generation after the equal pay legislation, and with women having the majority vote for almost 100 years, that they can fall back on "women's roles" whenever it suits them to do so and blame it on some mystical patriarchy against women! (The same 'patriarchy' that gave women the vote, gave them equal pay, maintains legislation that discriminates against men..)

Most people are not that gullible.

Original post by forfrosne
And gender roles are pretty much the central thing feminism attacks.

I've heard of no lobbying on this. Indeed, the Fawcett Society has argued against the governments proposed introduction of flexible parental leave that would enable men to look after young children.

After 160 years of feminist lobbying and campaigning, it should be obvious to anyone that feminist organisations do not have a goal to remove gender roles: at least, not for men.

Anyone wanting to support men as they struggle to lift themselves from being second-class citizens needs to support the men's movement, which inevitably (as this thread shows) means fighting against feminists and feminist organisations.
Original post by Darien

The White Feather campaign was largely promoted by those who were suffragettes: the same women who demanded the vote for wealthy women also demanded that poor men went off to die for them.


Notably, these were the conservative campaigners like Emmeline Pankhurst who not only would have been happy with simply suffrage for upper-class women, but also suspended their campaigning on the outbreak of war as they considered the war more important.

By contrast, the radicals who supported universal suffrage and maintained their campaigns into the war, such as Sylvia Pankhurst in the UK and Kate Richards O'Hare and Emma Goldman in the US, staunchly opposed and campaigned against the war.

It was a similar story in the 1960s, when the icons of second-wave feminism in the US like Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem were committed opponents of conscription and the Vietnam War, while anti-feminists like Phyllis Schlafly were committed supporters.

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