Muslims, how do you believe women are worse off in Western society?

I have heard many Muslims say that Islamic societies treat women with more respect than Western societies. They believe that wearing a veil stops a women from being 'objectified' by men. I have also heard, many many times, the metaphor that women are like a precious jewel which should be kept safe and out of the view of prying eyes.

Can you please explain to me how comparing a women to a commodity is being respectful of women?

Can you please explain how if a women doesn't wear a veil, then she is being objectified by men, but if a men doesn't wear a veil then he is not being objectified by women?

Can you please explain how denying women the freedom to draw sexual attention to themselves, if they please, is not incredibly patronizing to them and their intelligence?

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Reply 1

Skip_Snip

I'd be interested to see what batpoo reasons people come up with :biggrin:

Reply 2

the_lost_boy

The silence is very telling.

Reply 3

Xinho

that's islam for you.

Reply 4

RayApparently

Just goes to show that weak arguments are easily quashed.

Reply 5

Kabulkid

Can you please explain to me how comparing a women to a commodity is being respectful of women?

the comparison has to be drawn to allow people like you to understand, Islam treats women with the utmost respect, the prophet said:

"Paradise lies under the feet of your mother"

Can you please explain how if a women doesn't wear a veil, then she is being objectified by men, but if a men doesn't wear a veil then he is not being objectified by women?

she isn't being objectified by men if she doesn't wear a veil but the whole point of it is to make sure that women dress modestly so the sexual attraction is kept to a minimum, it's not just women that are advised to dress modestly, men should also dress modestly and lower their gaze.

Can you please explain how denying women the freedom to draw sexual attention to themselves, if they please, is not incredibly patronizing to them and their intelligence?

not even going to justify with a proper response lol.

Reply 6

matthewduncan

hmm more prone to suicide.
value their vaginas less maybe ?
more likely to get teased and harrased for being a slag.
Would think of more but am tired yooooow

Reply 7

Darien

Original post by KingBradly

...women are like a precious jewel...

Can you please explain to me how comparing a women to a commodity is being respectful of women?

I think you are getting carried away with female victimology here.

Oh dear, I must stop calling my girl "sugar". And I must stop her calling me "honey".

I'll have to make sure nobody calls a female an 'angel' either, since all angels are actually male.

And I must warn my aunt to stop calling her husband 'lambchop', after all, calling him a lump of meat is sooo degrading!

Really!

Reply 8

zippity.doodah

Original post by Kabulkid

what if that mother was evil...? what if she abused her kids? what if she stole/murdered?

Can you please explain how if a women doesn't wear a veil, then she is being objectified by men, but if a men doesn't wear a veil then he is not being objectified by women?

she isn't being objectified by men if she doesn't wear a veil but the whole point of it is to make sure that women dress modestly so the sexual attraction is kept to a minimum, it's not just women that are advised to dress modestly, men should also dress modestly and lower their gaze.

isn't that for the individual to decide and not the government, e.g. like in the middle eastern states? why should a government have the right to decide what people wear like this? the government is formed by adult human beings, and women are equally adult human beings, so what gives these fellow adults the right to legislate over other people's personal and victimless lives?

Can you please explain how denying women the freedom to draw sexual attention to themselves, if they please, is not incredibly patronizing to them and their intelligence?

not even going to justify with a proper response lol.

actually that is a good question asked; what if a woman felt that she wanted to do something like this? why exactly should she be forced to cease doing it?

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 9

Darien

Original post by zippity.doodah

When you turn up to a university lecture naked and don't get kicked out for it, then we can start to take such an attitude seriously.

Societies have standards and it is poor going to judge someone else's standards by our own.

nothing covered but her.jpg62.3KB

Reply 10

JuliusDS92

Original post by Darien

When you turn up to a university lecture naked and don't get kicked out for it, then we can start to take such an attitude seriously.

Turning up to a lecture naked is an issue of public decency, which is arguably more of an issue for men rather than women (as men exposing their genitals is more of a problem in society than women doing so). This is in no way comparable to women - only women - being forced to dress in a very specific way, especially when women are very repressed in general in this culture.

Original post by Darien

Societies have standards and it is poor going to judge someone else's standards by our own.

I often don't buy this, and I very much don't in this case. The forcing of women to dress in such a way is a perfect example of repression, which, by definition, is a negative thing. Such a standard always seems to be justified by the male members of such a society, who are of course the very people who are the perpetrators of this. This is immoral in any system which recognises the value of freedom of action and freedom of choice (subject to not impinging on these freedom's of others).

Reply 11

zippity.doodah

Original post by Darien

first of all, I'm not advocating that everybody go anywhere naked as if that is a good thing, I would say that they should be *allowed* to be naked when they want to be. with individual people, their fashion/lack of fashion is their choice. however, in most situations, either women are literally forced to cover their faces/heads (in the middle east), or they have parents that come from those backgrounds and thus spread that rule towards their kids in superior and more liberal western countries that they've decided are better than the countries they've left (I take absolutely no guilt in saying that the western world is far better than the middle east, because hey, it's undeniable, and I'd love to hear someone try to disagree)

Reply 12

Darien

Original post by zippity.doodah

(I take absolutely no guilt in saying that the western world is far better than the middle east, because hey, it's undeniable, and I'd love to hear someone try to disagree)

Well, OK then, using the same amount of proof as you have just demonstrated, I'll do more than 'try' ..

I disagree.

If you are going to try rebutting, make sure you have genuine, balanced opinion. If you are going to try pretending that women don't like being in the middle east, make sure you have read up on what women in the middle east have to say about the western world butting into their society and trying to stir up dissent.

Reply 13

Darien

Original post by JuliusDS92

Turning up to a lecture naked is an issue of public decency...

You REALLY don't get it, do you?

Reply 14

JuliusDS92

Original post by Darien

You REALLY don't get it, do you?

No, I REALLY think I do. Tell me why I don't. The ball's in your court.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 15

username1258398

Women are better off in Western society regardless of what Muslims believe

Reply 16

JC.

By requiring women to cover themselves is basically an admission that they are little more than animals who cannot control themselves.
Muslims need to drag themselves out of the cave and realise the world has moved on.

Reply 17

Bionic_Fighter

women are free to do whatever they want and dress in any way. religions should not "force" them to follow a specific way of life. religion should enourage people and give them hope, not the opposite.

Reply 18

Darien

Original post by JuliusDS92

No, I REALLY think I do. Tell me why I don't. The ball's in your court.

I was talking of the how incorrect (if not fallacious) it is to judge another society's standards by the standards one was brought up in.

Your response was about "public decency" which is a judgement of social standards.

By the standards of just 50 years ago in even in this country, our current concepts of public decency are 'wrong' and this has probably been much the case throughout history — the social standards of one age is strange ('wrong') to that of another age — and in 50 years' time what is considered public decency will almost certainly be 'wrong' by our current standards. That is within the same cultural background, let alone attempting to make judgements on the social standards of a completely different society.

The only way in which the social mores of another society can be viewed with any realism is from an anthropological viewpoint and from that view, societies in the middle east are generally proving a great deal more resilient and long-lasting than anything in the western world (which is not to knock what we have: there is no sure way to know which is the most sustainable for the next thousand years or more).

Reply 19

Darien

Original post by StrangeBanana

Women are better off in Western society regardless of what Muslims believe

What do you base your knowledge on, in the face of the support female Muslims have for their own way of living? Do you think you know better than them: if so, why?