The "Nice Guy" complex

Sure I would. But my intentions would still be clear, as the flirting is in there.

And I think 'nice guys' flirt too, as well as being nice!

I can honestly say that in the multiple times that I have unintentionally "friendzoned" a "nice guy", he had not flirted with me. He had been nice, offered to help me with my homework, chatted to me about what I was interested in, and was courteous (opening doors, etc.). None of that is flirting, so it's silly that I was expected to recognise his intentions.

I've posted regarding this topic before - here's my opinion on it:

The "friendzone" and "nice guy syndrome" seem to go hand in hand. These guys act nice, not with the intent of being decent human beings, but purely to attract girls. If the girls don't have any interest in them, they get their panties in a wad and insist that they have been friendzoned.

Sorry, but as a female, I am not obligated to have sex with any guy who holds the door open to me. And by becoming friends with the guys who are nice to me, I am actually rewarding the nice behaviour. It's not like guys are being nice and I am being a bitch in return - I am actually acknowledging that these guys have been nice to me, and have decided that they are good people and we can be friends. That's where guys seem to fall short. They act nice for the purpose of sex, when acting nice most often ends in friendship. Does that mean you've been "friendzoned"? No! It means that the girl in question does not currently find you to be a suitable partner. She may not be attracted to you physically, she may be attracted to a different sort of personality, or she may just not want to date!

We live in a world where we change our actions based on what we want from other people. This tactic only works if you are clear about it - people won't fall at your feet knowing what you want without you saying. If I want to have sex with somebody, I flirt with them and make my intentions clear. If I want to be friends with someone, I am nice to them and ask them to hang out. If I need help from someone, I approach them and ask for help. Similarly, if a guy was flirting with me and making it clear that he was interested sexually, it means he wants a sexual relationship. If a guy was being nice to me and spending his time with me in a friendly way, it means he wants a friendship. If I guy asked me for my assistance, it means he wants my assistance. It's not that hard of a concept.

tl;dr, Don't bitch about the friendzone when you didn't flirt and express your interest to the girl in question. Your intentions were not clear. If they were, it means she isn't interested, and frankly, you're a c*nt for thinking that she owes it to you for being nice.

This is all very well but I've lost count of the number of female friends who have chosen to date 'alpha male' bad boy types because they find them physically attractive, only to get cheated on a while into the relationship. As one of their close friends and a decent person I have of course been there to listen and offer moral support. But while they're ranting about 'hating men' and 'all guys being the same', I can't stop the voice in my head from screaming 'they really arent! YOU just always choose to date the same kind of men!'.

I completely agree with you that being nice doesn't automatically entitle anybody to a relationship, as well as about people making their intentions clear. However, you must realise that it's far easier for a confident/arrogant, brash guys who see women as objects/potential conquests to brazen flirt, than it is for a shy, humble, respectful man to do the same. On a personal level, I've watched one of my best (female) friends date a string of horrible but physically attractive and confident guys, and I've been there to pick her up everytime she gets her heart broken. I've liked her more than just as a friend for sometime, and I would have thought that this would have been obvious from all I've done for her, but I think it's pretty safe to say that I'm well and truly friendzoned. Anyway, I don't really know where I'm going with this, I just think that if people (not just women) choose their partners based on physical attraction rather than personality then they shouldn't really be that surprised if they get treated badly, and they certainly shouldn't start generalising about all men when it's really their taste in men that's the issue.

This is all very well but I've lost count of the number of female friends who have chosen to date 'alpha male' bad boy types because they find them physically attractive, only to get cheated on a while into the relationship. As one of their close friends and a decent person I have of course been there to listen and offer moral support. But while they're ranting about 'hating men' and 'all guys being the same', I can't stop the voice in my head from screaming 'they really arent! YOU just always choose to date the same kind of men!'.

I completely agree with you that being nice doesn't automatically entitle anybody to a relationship, as well as about people making their intentions clear. However, you must realise that it's far easier for a confident/arrogant, brash guys who see women as objects/potential conquests to brazen flirt, than it is for a shy, humble, respectful man to do the same. On a personal level, I've watched one of my best (female) friends date a string of horrible but physically attractive and confident guys, and I've been there to pick her up everytime she gets her heart broken. I've liked her more than just as a friend for sometime, and I would have thought that this would have been obvious from all I've done for her, but I think it's pretty safe to say that I'm well and truly friendzoned. Anyway, I don't really know where I'm going with this, I just think that if people (not just women) choose their partners based on physical attraction rather than personality then they shouldn't really be that surprised if they get treated badly, and they certainly shouldn't start generalising about all men when it's really their taste in men that's the issue.

I've posted regarding this topic before - here's my opinion on it:

The "friendzone" and "nice guy syndrome" seem to go hand in hand. These guys act nice, not with the intent of being decent human beings, but purely to attract girls. If the girls don't have any interest in them, they get their panties in a wad and insist that they have been friendzoned.

Sorry, but as a female, I am not obligated to have sex with any guy who holds the door open to me. And by becoming friends with the guys who are nice to me, I am actually rewarding the nice behaviour. It's not like guys are being nice and I am being a bitch in return - I am actually acknowledging that these guys have been nice to me, and have decided that they are good people and we can be friends. That's where guys seem to fall short. They act nice for the purpose of sex, when acting nice most often ends in friendship. Does that mean you've been "friendzoned"? No! It means that the girl in question does not currently find you to be a suitable partner. She may not be attracted to you physically, she may be attracted to a different sort of personality, or she may just not want to date!

We live in a world where we change our actions based on what we want from other people. This tactic only works if you are clear about it - people won't fall at your feet knowing what you want without you saying. If I want to have sex with somebody, I flirt with them and make my intentions clear. If I want to be friends with someone, I am nice to them and ask them to hang out. If I need help from someone, I approach them and ask for help. Similarly, if a guy was flirting with me and making it clear that he was interested sexually, it means he wants a sexual relationship. If a guy was being nice to me and spending his time with me in a friendly way, it means he wants a friendship. If I guy asked me for my assistance, it means he wants my assistance. It's not that hard of a concept.

tl;dr, Don't bitch about the friendzone when you didn't flirt and express your interest to the girl in question. Your intentions were not clear. If they were, it means she isn't interested, and frankly, you're a c*nt for thinking that she owes it to you for being nice.

This is all very well but I've lost count of the number of female friends who have chosen to date 'alpha male' bad boy types because they find them physically attractive, only to get cheated on a while into the relationship. As one of their close friends and a decent person I have of course been there to listen and offer moral support. But while they're ranting about 'hating men' and 'all guys being the same', I can't stop the voice in my head from screaming 'they really arent! YOU just always choose to date the same kind of men!'.

I completely agree with you that being nice doesn't automatically entitle anybody to a relationship, as well as about people making their intentions clear. However, you must realise that it's far easier for a confident/arrogant, brash guys who see women as objects/potential conquests to brazen flirt, than it is for a shy, humble, respectful man to do the same. On a personal level, I've watched one of my best (female) friends date a string of horrible but physically attractive and confident guys, and I've been there to pick her up everytime she gets her heart broken. I've liked her more than just as a friend for sometime, and I would have thought that this would have been obvious from all I've done for her, but I think it's pretty safe to say that I'm well and truly friendzoned. Anyway, I don't really know where I'm going with this, I just think that if people (not just women) choose their partners based on physical attraction rather than personality then they shouldn't really be that surprised if they get treated badly, and they certainly shouldn't start generalising about all men when it's really their taste in men that's the issue.

I can honestly say that in the multiple times that I have unintentionally "friendzoned" a "nice guy", he had not flirted with me. He had been nice, offered to help me with my homework, chatted to me about what I was interested in, and was courteous (opening doors, etc.). None of that is flirting, so it's silly that I was expected to recognise his intentions.

how is a guy wanting to spend time with you not flirting or a sign of attraction? Out of curiosity what would you consider flirting?

I always thought I was 'nice', but according to this lot 'nice guys' are utter d**chebags. My mistake.

Not necessarily. It depends. What OP means is that there are nice guys but some will ask out etc. and they will expect you to go out with them because they are 'nice'.

I don't know what I'm still doing on here

I see.
Niceness is just one of the many reasons I'd give in my Dragon's Den style pitch (where I offer a certain percentage of my attention, care and adoration in exchange for a reasonable emotional investment with potentially high returns).

"Just one the many reasons"<- You really love yourself don't you? (Not in a bad way)

Haha, especially at a "certain percentage" and "potentially high returns"