The Arsenal Thread XX

Original post by B-Stacks

Really? What about when we had the option to take him back before his move to Chelsea? Oh if I could recall some of you peoples posts...

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Agree

Original post by B-Stacks

Their best midfielder this season? But yet everyone was begging Tata to take him and Neymar out the starting eleven for Sanchez and Pedro. Only reason he's had decent statistics the past 3 seasons is because the 3 managers were basically forced to incorporate him into team, at the expense of Thiago. Not saying he's a bad player (stats for proof) but let's be real he never made a difference for Barca the 3 years he was there. Played out of position? They changed so much to accommodate him and try bring out the best of him, yet he still never really performed as well as he could. He couldn't keep them going, they declined. Enough evidence for me to say he's declined.

Who is dismissing Cesc tho? He was a great player for us and carried us through a lot of games. What more?

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Nope Fabregas was their best midfielder. Funny thing is guess when he had his best spell this season? Yes that's right when Messi was injured.

Guardiola tried to accommodate the two by playing 3-5-1-1, which was when Fab got invented as the false 9, him and Messi switched positions, while both of them were doing well at the time it wasn't getting results, so they stopped this and went back to 4-3-3.

Don't remember too much about Fabs season in 2013 but he had a good assist and goal tally. He rotated around with Xavi and Iniesta for the CM positions I think and a few games as the striker under Tito. Under Martino he played as the false 9 and he was very good. The problem was integrating Messi and Fabregas in the team.

Look at it properly and essentially Fabregas was a talented player but he's not better than Iniesta or Messi. That's essentially why it didn't work out for him. He doesn't have that ability to do the role Xavi did for them either.

Original post by Pete_91

Bizarrely Piccolo reminds me of Vieira for some reason.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 1343

Original post by TheInvincibles14

I agree that Cesc has more leadership qualities but that doesn't mean he's the better player, he wouldn't be effective in our current system I don't think. We are becoming more of a counter-attacking team, basically a inferior/worse version of RM when all players are fit. In this regard, Ozil is the better fit, he is quicker in transitioning the ball from defence to attack and is more mobile.

Cesc needs to be the creative hub of the team to flourish, it's debatable he'll even get this at Chelsea, if we had bought him he would have replaced Arteta meaning he would have been a cog so he would perform similar to his time at Barca. Essentially, we would have paid £30m for a better version of Arteta, which is what he is in a role that requires much more tactical discipline, it just doesn't make sense when you need a traditional DM.

I imagine Cesc' call to Wenger consisted of five words :laugh:

Spoiler

Posted from TSR Mobile

If wenger could go back I think we all know he'd take Cesc over ozil. Cesc is just the better player he's tailor made for the premier league. He also has a winners mentality and will drag the team through games ozil is the complete opposite and will go missing under any difficult circumstances. Of course Cesc would fit in to our system as well we rarely ever counter? We dominate possession in a lot of games or we contain and grind out results fabregas would elevate our game to a higher level and I'm gutted we've got ozil instead of Cesc and deep down I'm sure 90% of arsenal fans would trade ozil for him.

Reply 1344

Kenan and Kel

19

Original post by Thugnificent.

you guys need to get over it, cesc/iscariot and the rest of the disciples during the great drought did fxck all.

Cesc was a hero amongst men after Henry left him a load to carry. A hero!

Original post by TheInvincibles14

I agree that Cesc has more leadership qualities but that doesn't mean he's the better player, he wouldn't be effective in our current system I don't think. We are becoming more of a counter-attacking team, basically a inferior/worse version of RM when all players are fit. In this regard, Ozil is the better fit, he is quicker in transitioning the ball from defence to attack and is more mobile.

Cesc needs to be the creative hub of the team to flourish, it's debatable he'll even get this at Chelsea, if we had bought him he would have replaced Arteta meaning he would have been a cog so he would perform similar to his time at Barca. Essentially, we would have paid £30m for a better version of Arteta, which is what he is in a role that requires much more tactical discipline, it just doesn't make sense when you need a traditional DM.

I imagine Cesc' call to Wenger consisted of five words :laugh:

Spoiler

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I think it's too soon to say that Arsenal are becoming more of a counter-attacking team. We didn't see enough signs of it last season and until we actually see a strong Arsenal XI out on the pitch in pre-season, I don't think we can be certain that that's the direction this Arsenal team is heading in. While you might have the players to produce counter-attacking football, it's no guarantee that it's the system Wenger will opt for.

I think Fabregas was missed in your big games last season, especially those at the Emirates where it was a tight affair (most notably United and Chelsea). He's the kind of guy that'll produce something special in those matches, whether it's a run opening up space, a defence-splitting assist or a 20 yard+ goal. He just seems to come alive in the most crucial of times - we've seen that for Arsenal and Spain, less regularly for Barcelona but he had his moments there too.

I guess it's fair to say that Ozil is more suited to Arsenal's system but I still believe Fabregas is the superior player and would offer more than Ozil in your team. BTW, your argument about Arteta only stands if you buy a proper DM, and there's no guarantee that'll happen either. :biggrin:

Reply 1345

Original post by baconbutty

If wenger could go back I think we all know he'd take Cesc over ozil. Cesc is just the better player he's tailor made for the premier league. He also has a winners mentality and will drag the team through games ozil is the complete opposite and will go missing under any difficult circumstances. Of course Cesc would fit in to our system as well we rarely ever counter? We dominate possession in a lot of games or we contain and grind out results fabregas would elevate our game to a higher level and I'm gutted we've got ozil instead of Cesc and deep down I'm sure 90% of arsenal fans would trade ozil for him.

Honestly bar the spurs games I didn't really see Arsenal counter attack last season. Probably vs Bayern as well, home until they got the red and away for most of the game, I don't remember the away vs Napoli though and at home they picked Napoli off with a counter attack I think and defended their 2-0 lead for the rest of the game.

Reply 1346

Original post by jam278

Loooool just a few weeks ago before Cesc joined Chelsea you were saying the opposite that you'd have taken Cesc over Ozil.

Aaron Ramsey the box to box midfielder vs Fabregas the playmaker. Yeah great comparison mate. If you stopped being biased you'd actually have points worth listening to.

Because Cesc was(/is) an Arsenal man so there was an emotional connection to him as well. Would take a 21 year old Bergkamp over a 21 year old Zidane but that doesnt necessarily imply any judgement on relative ability. Hope you follow this complex concept. :rolleyes:

Can see why some people prefer Cesc, can see why others prefer Ozil(that is Ozil at his best in the right system naturally), both are actually quite different so it's more a question of style than quality.

Ramsey and Cesc are of course very different players but they play in the same position. As far as anyone knows, Cesc will play at CM behind Oscar, as Ramsey plays behind Ozil. So by your bizarre logic, I can not make a comparison between Drogba and Henry or between Sagna and Debuchy because they have different styles. In this case, Ramsey is the superior player to Cesc at CM.

Reply 1347

Original post by jam278

Honestly bar the spurs games I didn't really see Arsenal counter attack last season. Probably vs Bayern as well, home until they got the red and away for most of the game, I don't remember the away vs Napoli though and at home they picked Napoli off with a counter attack I think and defended their 2-0 lead for the rest of the game.

I can't remember us countering through choice I think it was all just circumstantial. Napoli away we parked the bus and had no chances at all. Spurs we did counter but we were also absolutely shocking in possession so it's hard to know if we set out to counter or if We just happened to play on the counter because we couldn't string 3 passes together.

Reply 1348

Longer term I think we need to draw a line on that truly despicable 2008-2012 Arsenal side of RVP, Cesc, Adebayor, Nasri,Song, Cluchy, Gallas, Arshavin, Bendtner etc. They absolutely failed Arsenal in winning the sum total of nothing despite having more than enough quality, most of their collapses were truly pitiful and looking at the individual character of the players, that is no surprise. I dont think there's been a successful side with character like that. That dressing room was an absolute cesspool of ****-houses. The best I can say for them is that they were cheap to assemble and maintained CL revenue for us to get us through the new stadium years, but I credit Wenger for that achievement 100%.

Say what you like about whether the likes of Ramsey, Wilshere, Mertesacker, Koscielny, Ozil, AOC, Gibbs etc have the quality to win the title, but at the very least they seem like a good bunch of lads who want to do their best for our club and have made a good start with the Cup win. 10 years down the line it will be players like Aaron Ramsey and Jack Wilshere that we'll remember when the likes of Cesc Fabregas are long forgotten as the non-events they were.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 1349

Original post by Zürich

Because Cesc was(/is) an Arsenal man so there was an emotional connection to him as well.

This is interesting, because you've lost that emotional connection and even grown disdain and contempt for his decision. I can easily quote you parring off Cesc.

So essentially that you're saying that your bias is clouding your judgement in a nutshell but trying to twist it in any way you can that makes your opinion more respectable?

Would take a 21 year old Bergkamp over a 21 year old Zidane but that doesnt necessarily imply any judgement on relative ability. Hope you follow this complex concept. :rolleyes:

Can see why some people prefer Cesc, can see why others prefer Ozil(that is Ozil at his best in the right system naturally), both are actually quite different so it's more a question of style than quality.

Aka, you're biased and focus more on sentimentality than the actual skill of the player. Hence why I can't take you seriously with the Cesc/Ozil comparisons.

I get what you're saying and that's the only thing that any person without an agenda against Cesc or who doesn't get a hard on from your posts can conclude from what you've said.

Ramsey and Cesc are of course very different players but they play in the same position. As far as anyone knows, Cesc will play at CM behind Oscar, as Ramsey plays behind Ozil. So by your bizarre logic, I can not make a comparison between Drogba and Henry or between Sagna and Debuchy because they have different styles. In this case, Ramsey is the superior player to Cesc at CM.

So I guess Oscar is better than Mikel. Both can play at CM and both have played at CM. Ivanovic is better than Ramires as he's played at RB this season a few times.

Schurrle is better than Azpilicueta.

I can go on all day using your logickz but I think you know the score.

Reply 1350

Original post by jam278

This is interesting, because you've lost that emotional connection and even grown disdain and contempt for his decision. I can easily quote you parring off Cesc.

So essentially that you're saying that your bias is clouding your judgement in a nutshell but trying to twist it in any way you can that makes your opinion more respectable?

Aka, you're biased and focus more on sentimentality than the actual skill of the player. Hence why I can't take you seriously with the Cesc/Ozil comparisons.

I get what you're saying and that's the only thing that any person without an agenda against Cesc or who doesn't get a hard on from your posts can conclude from what you've said.

:rolleyes:

So I guess Oscar is better than Mikel. Both can play at CM and both have played at CM. Ivanovic is better than Ramires as he's played at RB this season a few times.

Schurrle is better than Azpilicueta.

I can go on all day using your logickz but I think you know the score.

Off on any number of trivial tangents here. You made a point about me saying I'd have swapped Cesc for Ozil a few weeks back, which I put down to sentiment. Now since my opinion of Cesc has swung entirely the other way, I now would not swap the two. What does this say about my actual assessment of the players? All it says is that I am swayed by sentimentality(in either direction), but this is a discussion of fundamental quality so I have absolutely no idea what you are arguing here. 2 months ago you could have argued that I overrated Cesc because of sentimentality, and you are arguing that my assessment of Cesc then was well reasoned (despite bias) but now is not, because of bias? No doubt I'd say that Cesc>Ozil had we swapped the two, but that is the nature of football supporters and biased assessments can also also be quite accurate.

Yes Oscar is better than Mikel at CM in general, but naturally the two are completely different in style. There are all manner of CMs.

Invitations to compare Shurrle/Ivanovic and such have no relevance. Ramsey and Cesc's primary position will be at CM and so the two are perfectly comparable. I really dont know what you're trying to say, at all.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 1351

Original post by Zürich

Off on any number of trivial tangents here. You made a point about me saying I'd have swapped Cesc for Ozil a few weeks back, which I put down to sentiment. Now since my opinion of Cesc has swung entirely the other way, and I now would not swap the two. What does this say about my actual assessment of the players? All it says is that I am heavily swayed by sentimentality, but this is a discussion of fundamental quality so I have absolutely no idea what you are arguing here. Not a thing no doubt.

Je ne comprend pas?

Are you basically saying in a long winded way that you let your bias cloud your judgement? If I'm using logic then Cesc going to a hated rival will cause you to swing into Ozil's favour? Is that too hard to get or not?

Yes Oscar is better than Mikel at CM in general, but naturally the two are completely different.

Invitations to compare Shurrle/Ivanovic and such, have no relevance. Ramsey and Cesc's primary position will be at CM and so the two are perfectly comparable. I really dont know what you're trying to say, at all.

Oscar's primary position has been at AM though. Fabregas has played as an AM and that's his main position, that's the position he played at Barca and that's the position he played at Arsenal. So comparing the two is weird.

Also Fabregas didn't play at the double pivot in the 4-2-3-1, while Ramsey does, so you can't compare the two.

For strikers it's easier to compare e.g. Drogba vs Rooney as they'd be judged on their contribution to the game (i.e. goals) but it's harder to compare for midfielders.

As a CM, you'd say Ramsey is better as the box to box midfielder, but if we're talking about a guy who has the freedom to roam about and be a creative cog of the team, Fabregas wins hands down. So you can't say who is the better CM here.

Reply 1352

Original post by Kenan and Kel

I think it's too soon to say that Arsenal are becoming more of a counter-attacking team. We didn't see enough signs of it last season and until we actually see a strong Arsenal XI out on the pitch in pre-season, I don't think we can be certain that that's the direction this Arsenal team is heading in. While you might have the players to produce counter-attacking football, it's no guarantee that it's the system Wenger will opt for.

I think Fabregas was missed in your big games last season, especially those at the Emirates where it was a tight affair (most notably United and Chelsea). He's the kind of guy that'll produce something special in those matches, whether it's a run opening up space, a defence-splitting assist or a 20 yard+ goal. He just seems to come alive in the most crucial of times - we've seen that for Arsenal and Spain, less regularly for Barcelona but he had his moments there too.

I guess it's fair to say that Ozil is more suited to Arsenal's system but I still believe Fabregas is the superior player and would offer more than Ozil in your team. BTW, your argument about Arteta only stands if you buy a proper DM, and there's no guarantee that'll happen either. :biggrin:

We're not becoming a counter attacking team really, a reasonable comparison in style would be to Bayern 2013 in terms of a focus on possession with pace out wide wings and a target man for up top for the rest to play off. Last season after Ramsey/Walcott/AOC/Podolski were injured our football was terribly one dimensional with tat slow passing game but this was unintended of course. The vast majority of Wenger sides have had real pace to shift through the gears, Overmars/Ljungberg/Reyes/Walcott and now Alexis of course so we'll just revert to that so probably rather than compare Arsenal 2014/15 to any other club, we should just compare it with previous Wenger sides :laugh:

Agree that Fabregas is generally the superior big game player and at his best at Arsenal he did have those moments when we would change the game. But how much of that was down to Wenger making him the focal point of the team? Arsenal 2006-2011 was set up to basically get the best out of him, and so it's maybe not surprising that he was the guy who changed games for us. Has he done the same in any other Spain/Barcelona side, and will he have the same role at Chelsea?

Fabregas also responded to Wenger, they had a very special relationship and the belief and confidence he gave him is not insignificant in explaining his brilliance at Arsenal imo. At Barca/Spain he's always been just another midfielder, someone who had a role within the team and he doesnt seem to respond nearly as well. Will Mourinho put his arm around his shoulder, tell him he's his main man and tell the other players to follow his lead? Probably not and so it remains to be seen whether it was the PL or Arsene Wenger that Cesc needs to be world class.

In terms of interactions between players, I think Ramsey and Ozil would have a better chemistry in that Ramsey is actually the focal point of our team really, and Ozil will is the one trying to get the best out of him. Alexis Sanchez will be much the same, Ozil likes to be the man pulling the strings rather than the man in the spotlight, which is the opposite of Cesc really. We have yet to really see Ozil with proper wide players either, and I think most would agree that Ozil is the superior passer of the ball to Cesc so again we need to reserve judgement until we see that. In effect, Ozil is the more selfless player and with out current squad and system, a player like Cesc who wants to be the director of a supporting cast is probably out of place.

Last season Ozil struggled, after Christmas, for 2 reasons. 1) Lack of pace in front of him and 2) His new role as the superstar, main man of a team when before he was very much there to work for the team at Real. I think Sanchez's arrivial will help solve both problems actually, and with Ramsey, Walcott and even Debuchy offering more options for him as well, he'll find his feet. He came under a lot of pressure, but a few top performances early doors and he wont look back, very soon we'll see the world class player that he's always been hopefully. :smile:

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 1353

Ozil superior passer of the ball than Cesc

I've heard it all now

Reply 1354

Original post by baconbutty

Ozil superior passer of the ball than Cesc

I've heard it all now

Well here's one way of looking at it. Recognise the fact that Ozil has had a higher pass completion rate, higher cross completion rate, has made more key passes and creates more chances every 90 minutes.

Plenty prefer Cesc to Ozil, but they do so because he is more dynamic, more involved in the play, a better goal-scorer etc. Very few do so because they they think he can pass better. We didn't see so much of it obviously last season for reasons touched upon, but anyone who ever watched Ozil at his best must recognise a ferocious passing ability and vision. The man made has made more assists than anyone since 2010.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 1355

SarcasticMel

2

Oh how different that would look if he hadn't scored that goal.

He was a lot better at Dortmund you cannot deny that, and there is a rich history of players going to Bayern failing and still winning trophies. (Poldi).

I guess if you want trophies, he did well. If you want to better yourself, then yes, I firmly believe the move to Bayern was not good for his career.

Reply 1356

Original post by Zürich

Well here's one way of looking at it. Recognise the fact that Ozil has had a higher pass completion rate, higher cross completion rate, has made more key passes and creates more chances every 90 minutes.

Plenty prefer Cesc to Ozil, but they do so because he is more dynamic, more involved in the play, a better goal-scorer etc. Very few do so because they they think he can pass better. We didn't see so much of it obviously last season for reasons touched upon, but anyone who ever watched Ozil at his best must recognise a ferocious passing ability and vision. The man made has made more assists than anyone since 2010.

Cesc is clearly the better passer has a far better range of passing than ozil. Twice as many successful through balls as him when they both play number 10 Cesc scores double or triple the goals ozil does on average and they get similar assist records with Cesc usually coming out on top and let's remember who Cesc was assisting compared to who ozil was assisting. Pass completion lol? Is arteta the best passer in the league? Cesc is far more ambitious in his passing of course it will be lower

Reply 1357

Kenan and Kel

19

Original post by Zürich

x

You made some good points there. Especially on Ozil being the guy that pulls the strings rather than being the focal point of the team. And it seems likely that Ozil will improve this season with Sanchez in there and Walcott back, but if he doesn't, he has absolutely no excuses this time. On the subject of being the focal point and pulling the strings, I don't think you can only be one or the other. Fabregas IMO is good enough to be both. In fact, he was both during his time at Arsenal!

Fabregas was never the main man for Spain or Barcelona, but he was still involved in big moments for both, especially Spain. Assist in the 1-0 win in the Euro 2008 Final, assist in the 1-0 in the World Cup 2010 Final, assist in the winning goal in the Euro 2012 Final. Ozil might be a slightly better passer, might be a slightly better dribbler and slightly more mobile, but Fabregas is a much better leader, a MUCH bigger fighter and always has a special moment in him. Honestly think those qualities make the real difference when it comes down to it.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 1358