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Reply 1640
Original post by Sic semper erat
The action in principle might be humanitarian, but the intention behind it is 100% political.

Focusing on one conflict and ignoring all others does not make you a human rights activists, it just makes you anti-Israel. There's nothing wrong with being anti-Israel but what's wrong is not admitting it.


Governments ignoring this conflict and condemning other massacres and actions is what makes us highlight this one. I.e. Condemned Russia but not Israel in the same week. Condemned Syria, iraq, Iran.
Original post by Diamante06

Spoiler



That's very sad but Hamas is doing nothing to safeguard the people of Gaza by not attacking it's neighbour. Only Hamas has broken ceasefires. It would be all fine if they didn't do this.


Original post by Dhibla
Governments ignoring this conflict and condemning other massacres and actions is what makes us highlight this one. I.e. Condemned Russia but not Israel in the same week. Condemned Syria, iraq, Iran.


Why condemn Israel? Hamas is the one initiating attacks. What do you expect Israel to do? Not respond to rocketfire? Why should they put up with these attacks?
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 1642
Original post by Sic semper erat
I condemn Israel for not getting rid of Hamas back in 2008, which would have prevented deaths in the 2012 and 2014 conflicts in Gaza.


It's not hamas that causes innocent deaths. It's the Israeli government's approach.
Right now it's not the politics of either side that concerns me, but the innocents dying due to it. I therefore condemn both sides for allowing civilians to die, more so Israel as they are doing the killing and trying to justify a 80% civilian rate with 'self defence' against a relatively weakly armed non legitimate group of militants.
Reply 1643
Original post by Snagprophet
That's very sad but Hamas is doing nothing to safeguard the people of Gaza by not attacking it's neighbour. Only Hamas has broken ceasefires. It would be all fine if they didn't do this.




Why condemn Israel? Hamas is the one initiating attacks. What do you expect Israel to do? Not respond to rocketfire? Why should they put up with these attacks?


They avoid their civilians dying so why target other civilians. Why not actually target those aiming at them. Why a 80% civilian death rate, why are disabled homes, schools, mosques, cemetries, houses and churches being targeted. What threat did boys playing at a beach pose? That's why.
Dhibla
I don't know what you define humanitarianism to be but this is a dictionary definition: person who seeks to promote human welfare. Now I am stating that by going to the protest we are promoting human lives and welfare over diplomatic or economic ties. We go to those protests to ask our governments to condemn these killings as they do with any other massacre. The fact that anti Israeli protests get more turn out is not due to anti-semetism but because western nations favour Israel over say russia who gets condemned the hour of a shooting or Iran who have sanctions or Syria who they consider going to war with or iraq who they do go to war with. Our intentions are to protect human welfare, by asking our governments to. We would do it if it was Pakistan and our governments were silent. It doesn't matter who is dying. It's who's doing the killing and why our governments aren't reacting the same way we are, or upholding the values of international law enforcement indiscriminately.

So if the British government condemned Israel there would be no more protests?
Original post by Sic semper erat
I condemn Israel for not getting rid of Hamas back in 2008, which would have prevented deaths in the 2012 and 2014 conflicts in Gaza.


Look another Zionist calling for the ethnic cleansing of an entire nation.
Original post by PaulPaulPaul
Look another Zionist calling for the ethnic cleansing of an entire nation.


So in your mind Hamas = all Palestinians :eek:
Reply 1647
Original post by UniOfLife
So if the British government condemned Israel there would be no more protests?


I can't promise that but I know I will stop attending protests because at least the killings are not allowed by governments in my name. I think condemning and cutting economic ties with the Israelis will suffice to significantly drop the number of protests. There may still be some outside the Israeli embassy, to show further disapproval but I think probably not many.
Original post by Dhibla
I can't promise that but I know I will stop attending protests because at least the killings are not allowed by governments in my name. I think condemning and cutting economic ties with the Israelis will suffice to significantly drop the number of protests. There may still be some outside the Israeli embassy, to show further disapproval but I think probably not many.


One last question - at the protests you were at, did you see posters calling on the British government to condemn Israel? Did the speakers call on the British government to condemn Israel? Was that the primary focus of the protests?
Reply 1649
Original post by Sic semper erat
Right, so how come there's peace and quiet in the West Bank? no airstrikes, no rocket attacks, nothing. I think it should be obvious that Hamas is the problem, not Israel or any other Palestinian government.


I don't doubt that they provoke the attacks, but the causing of innocent deaths is those who attack innocents aka, the Israeli government.
Reply 1650
Original post by UniOfLife
One last question - at the protests you were at, did you see posters calling on the British government to condemn Israel? Did the speakers call on the British government to condemn Israel? Was that the primary focus of the protests?


I suppose so. It was to recognise that Israel is a terror state, and their deaths shouldn't be legitimised. It was also to 'free palestine' from their Israeli oppressors.
Original post by Dhibla
They avoid their civilians dying so why target other civilians. Why not actually target those aiming at them. Why a 80% civilian death rate, why are disabled homes, schools, mosques, cemetries, houses and churches being targeted. What threat did boys playing at a beach pose? That's why.


I have no idea about the beach but why are all these 'civilian' casualties mostly male and mostly of an age to be fighting. While that doesn't necessarily mean being male and of that age = combatant, it certainly is curiously skewed as such.

Methinks it's Hamas reporting every death as a civilian casualty. It's not as if they don't use photos of injured or dying Syrian children and pass them off as Gazans for the attention already.
Original post by Dhibla
I suppose so. It was to recognise that Israel is a terror state, and their deaths shouldn't be legitimised. It was also to 'free palestine' from their Israeli oppressors.


That sounds like a big fat "no", to me.

Perhaps you were there only to demand the British government condemn it. Almost everyone else was there for a different reason.
Reply 1653
Original post by UniOfLife
That sounds like a big fat "no", to me.

Perhaps you were there only to demand the British government condemn it. Almost everyone else was there for a different reason.


The only reason it had such a big reception was because Israel was still considered legitimate by our governments, and those chants reflect exactly that. So yes they were.
Reply 1654
Original post by Snagprophet
I have no idea about the beach but why are all these 'civilian' casualties mostly male and mostly of an age to be fighting. While that doesn't necessarily mean being male and of that age = combatant, it certainly is curiously skewed as such.

Methinks it's Hamas reporting every death as a civilian casualty. It's not as if they don't use photos of injured or dying Syrian children and pass them off as Gazans for the attention already.


These are independent sources such as al jazeera and the independent
Original post by Dhibla
The only reason it had such a big reception was because Israel was still considered legitimate by our governments, and those chants reflect exactly that. So yes they were.


But despite the entire point of the protest being for the British government to condemn Israel, there were no placards saying that and no speeches on that topic? Nonsense. The point of the protest was not as you claim. Sorry.

And if it were, where was the protest a few years ago when Sri Lanka flat out butchered thousands of Tamils?

You may genuinely believe what you are writing. Only trouble is that I don't and nor would any sane person.
Reply 1656
Original post by Sic semper erat
Run by Qatar


A country has taken no actions against Israel in the past few days proves nothing about the partiality of that news outlet. The simple fact that they are Arab proves nothing. The south Africans have done more for the Palestinians.
Original post by Dhibla
These are independent sources such as al jazeera and the independent


Qatar-owned. The same country that's funding ISIS.

Great source. :rolleyes:


Original post by Dhibla
A country has taken no actions against Israel in the past few days proves nothing about the partiality of that news outlet. The simple fact that they are Arab proves nothing. The south Africans have done more for the Palestinians.



Qatar send money to Hamas too.
Reply 1658
Original post by UniOfLife
But despite the entire point of the protest being for the British government to condemn Israel, there were no placards saying that and no speeches on that topic? Nonsense. The point of the protest was not as you claim. Sorry.

And if it were, where was the protest a few years ago when Sri Lanka flat out butchered thousands of Tamils?

You may genuinely believe what you are writing. Only trouble is that I don't and nor would any sane person.


There were chants shouting shame on the government. Free palestine, was shouting to allow them out of the open air prison the Israeli government were keeping them in and the government taking no notice. The chants that Israel is a terror state was for the government to recognise the fact that Israel's actions are equal to that of terrorists. And please don't condescendingly pity my opinions because you are the one arguing for a country which is killing children, the disabled and elderly which have nothing to do with their problem with hamas. And I'm the one not sane? Do not make this personal, god knows I've been avoiding doing that in my responses to you.
Original post by Agapelove
Why didn't the Ottoman Empire give the Palestinians their own country? Just curious.


Palestine can have a state/country too. The only issue is they don't want an Israel state; they in general don't love the Jewish people. I thought the Arabs and the Jews are distant relatives... both descendants of Abraham? Why can't they get along? Why didn't the descendants of Abraham (through Ishmael) living in Palestine welcome the refugees, who are also descendants of Abraham (though Isaac and Jacob (Israel)?

Is it true that most people nowadays who identify as Arabs are not in fact descendants of Abraham?




The Jews conquered the Canaanites. While I do not appreciate them killing the Canaanites, that did happen. :frown: Arabs as well conquered other people groups, killing other people. English as well...




God knows if there is 'pure' Israeli blood much better than mere mortals do.



That is sad and wrong. That needs to change, but Arabs or Palestinians throwing rockets into Israel doesn't help that situation, does it? Even uneducated little boys throwing rocks at Israeli soldiers doesn't help anything; it just shows an extreme hostility.

In the USA, if a boy threw rocks at a police officer, he'd be in big trouble, no matter his ethnicity. Why don't the Arabs/Palestinians treat the Jewish people kindly? Martin Luther King Jr. experienced persecution for his standing up to inequality in the USA. However, he taught and showed nonviolence. If he had used violence, a lot of bloodshed would have happened and human civil rights would have suffered greatly. His use of nonviolence and love shamed 'white' people into understanding that they are not superior to people of other skin colors/ethnicities.



Much of the prophecies concerning Israel in the Tanakh were not well-received by some Jewish people. It's just a fact. That's one reason why many do not accept Jesus (Yeshua/Isa) as the Messiah; they don't think that Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 are about Jesus, for example.


I personally think the Muslims had no right to conquer Palestine from the Byzantine Empire, but they did. I also personally think that the Roman Empire had no right to destroy Jerusalem (and Israel/Judea) but they did.


The Jewish people originally immigrated to the land peacefully, buying land from the UK. Once the Palestinians started fighting their immigration, they did sadly react with violence instead of with love and kindness. This is wrong. If they had obeyed Jesus/Yeshua/Isa' commands to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37), then I think there would be peace today.

Anyways, why can't the Palestinians and the Jewish people live together in peace? Why can't the Jewish people have their one Jewish state? Arabs have many Arab states. I know Islam is hostile towards Jews who don't accept Muhammad's claims, but I do think Islam should give the only holy city of Judaism (Jerusalem) back to Judaism. Islam already has Mecca and Medina. The Arabs already have their Arab states. Why hate the one Jewish state so fiercely? Is Judaism and a Jewish Israel in the midst of Muslim-dominated lands a threat to Islam?

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I think you are a kind hearted person, so I will not reply to you caustically. The problem is that you are misinformed about many of the subjects I spoke of, but this is common in the USA. I have lived there, I listened, and I was brainwashed for a long time.

1. The Ottoman Empire didn't give them a state because no empire, and no country has ever willingly given up land. Every centimeter of land in profitable, so sadly they were unwilling to give us a state.

2. If you look at the way the land was divided during the Oshlo accord, and how it is now you will see why a two state solution does not work. Palestine/Israel is a tiny area that was split. Israel received 2/3 and Arabs 1/3. That made Arabs unhappy. Also, the majority of the Palestinian lands were surrounded by Israeli lands. To travel from one area to another you had to cross into Israel (that would give Israel control over Palestinian trade which is a huge no no when it comes to having a country). Next, Israel build illegal settlements on the MINUTE Palestinian land. these settlements were connected by roads (taking more land). I could go on and on about how Israel never planned on having a Palestinian country. they surround the small arab areas by walls, and try to make their lives horrible so that the people migrate.

3. I think that the majority of arabs are descendants of Abraham, but I do not know enough to answer this question with any backing

4. The jews conquered some one the Canaanite lands but not all. What happened was: Canaanites conquered this land from idk who, then the Jews came and conquered a portion of the land, but the Canaanites (now a minority remained). Then both groups were taken over by the Assyrians I think.

5. Yes, only God knows, but sadly we do not have his wisdom. We can only rely on what we know. What we know is that Jews lived here, they were conquered by the Assyrians and intermingled with their empire. Many moved and lived in Europe or remained in the land. In Europe the mixed with Europeans such as the Germanic tribes and the Vikings. They stayed longer and mixed more. If they stayed in the Arab lands they mixed with Arabs. The idea or pure blood is impossible.

6. You are right, violence is not the answer, but many people are uneducated and do not know how to deal with it any other way. there are many peaceful protests., but If you watch 5 broken camera a documentary of a man who recorded protests in his village, you will see the outcome of peaceful protests. People in the protests are harassed by soldiers, beaten, and shot at. you will see in the documentary that the man recording was shot multiple times. His brother was shot and died, and he showed no threat to the officers. If you do not believe me, please watch the documentary. it was recorded by a man with a simple video camera, nothing fancy, but it show what goes on.

7. thank you for that info. I would reply, but I know very little about the bible.

8. I think your image of the migration is slightly misconstrued. The jews did buy the land from the UK (which should not have happened since it was not their land to sell-The land was mandate land. At the end of the World War they stated that their only goal was to help the Palestinians create a country, not give one to the misplaced jews). When jews first started coming in, there were no problems. When more started coming, there were still no problems. Then, when the Jews started attacking Arabs and forcing them off of their land, problems began. If you go look at any timeline, even on BBC(a news station cluttered with western propaganda), you will see that many "terrorist attacks" by the jews occurred. they blew up buildings and attacked civilians, and in 1948 they began the massacres, and displacement of people. If you read The Lemon Tree you will read a story of a man who came back to see his old house, and speaking to the woman who lived there. The book shows all the propaganda told to jewish civilians who moved to Israel. The woman tells the man that she was told that the family left by choice, and she had no idea that people were killed etc...

9. This conflict is not one about religion. Zionism is not religious, and they are not fighting for their religion. Zionism was created to find a land for the jews because they were mistreated everywhere else. They chose Palestine because it had religious ties to Judaism, so they could persuade the international community, and the rest of the jewish community easily easily. REAL Islam has no problem with Judaism, and I find it hilarious that you so nonchalantly state that Muslims despise jews. we have no hatred for jews, and real Muslims are taught to treat everyone fairly no matter their religion. It is also funny that you throw out this idea of casually giving the jews the land. lets put this into perspective for you. lets say that the state that you live in somehow had religious meaning to some religion. people came in and started living there. you were fine with it because they didn't affect you, and they abided by the laws. then, lets say they started telling people that they had to leave certain densely populated areas of the state, and the people that didn't listen were attacked. As this is occurring, these religious people have international backing so they can do whatever they want. eventually they develop their own government and their own rules, and these rules oftentimes feel unfair, and the government also aids those who attack the people in your state if they are not apart of this religious group. Would you just sit there and take this? would you just hand them the state? I doubt it. This is the mentality of the Arabs (Muslim and Christian alike), anddddd we also have religious ties to this land. It makes sense that we would not want to give it up.

I hope this helps with your understanding of the conflict. feel free to ask more questions.

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