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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV
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Original post by UniOfLife
The same people who protest against Israel also protested against intervention in Libya or Syria and certainly against Iraq. In a strange sort of way you're right but the result is twisted. Israel is vilified precisely because it is better than so many other countries but the people doing the vilification end up believing that Israel is by far the worst.
As for whether the "massacre" would end. Yes, in the short term. If Israel stopped its operations then Palestinians in Gaza would not die. But would the rockets against Israelis civilians stop? No. So what choice do the Israelis have? Should they have to live with those rocket attacks because the only way to stop them or reduce them necessarily involves the death of civilians?
As for whether the "massacre" would end. Yes, in the short term. If Israel stopped its operations then Palestinians in Gaza would not die. But would the rockets against Israelis civilians stop? No. So what choice do the Israelis have? Should they have to live with those rocket attacks because the only way to stop them or reduce them necessarily involves the death of civilians?
So it is not a massacre?!
What would you describe it as then?!
Dearest friends,
The last night was extreme. The "ground invasion" of Gaza resulted in scores and carloads with maimed, torn apart, bleeding, shivering, dying - all sorts of injured Palestinians, all ages, all civilians, all innocent.
The heroes in the ambulances and in all of Gaza's hospitals are working 12-24 hour shifts, grey from fatigue and inhuman workloads (without payment all in Shifa for the last 4 months), they care, triage, try to understand the incomprehensible chaos of bodies, sizes, limbs, walking, not walking, breathing, not breathing, bleeding, not bleeding humans. HUMANS!
Now, once more treated like animals by "the most moral army in the world" (sic!).
My respect for the wounded is endless, in their contained determination in the midst of pain, agony and shock; my admiration for the staff and volunteers is endless, my closeness to the Palestinian "sumud" gives me strength, although in glimpses I just want to scream, hold someone tight, cry, smell the skin and hair of the warm child, covered in blood, protect ourselves in an endless embrace - but we cannot afford that, nor can they.
Ashy grey faces - Oh NO! Not one more load of tens of maimed and bleeding, we still have lakes of blood on the floor in the ER, piles of dripping, blood-soaked bandages to clear out - oh - the cleaners, everywhere, swiftly shovelling the blood and discarded tissues, hair, clothes,cannulas - the leftovers from death - all taken away ... to be prepared again, to be repeated all over. More then 100 cases came to Shifa in the last 24 hrs. Enough for a large well trained hospital with everything, but here - almost nothing: no electricity, water, disposables, drugs, OR-tables, instruments, monitors - all rusted and as if taken from museums of yesterday's hospitals. But they do not complain, these heroes. They get on with it, like warriors, head on, enormously resolute.
And as I write these words to you, alone, on a bed, my tears flow, the warm but useless tears of pain and grief, of anger and fear. This is not happening!
An then, just now, the orchestra of the Israeli war-machine starts its gruesome symphony again, just now: salvos of artillery from the navy boats just down on the shores, the roaring F16, the sickening drones (Arabic 'Zennanis', the hummers), and the cluttering Apaches. So much made in and paid by the US.
Mr. Obama - do you have a heart?
I invite you - spend one night - just one night - with us in Shifa. Disguised as a cleaner, maybe.
I am convinced, 100%, it would change history.
Nobody with a heart AND power could ever walk away from a night in Shifa without being determined to end the slaughter of the Palestinian people.
But the heartless and merciless have done their calculations and planned another "dahyia" onslaught on Gaza.
The rivers of blood will keep running the coming night. I can hear they have tuned their instruments of death.
Please. Do what you can. This, THIS cannot continue.
Mads Gilbert MD PhD
Professor and Clinical Head
Clinic of Emergency Medicine
University Hospital of North Norway
The last night was extreme. The "ground invasion" of Gaza resulted in scores and carloads with maimed, torn apart, bleeding, shivering, dying - all sorts of injured Palestinians, all ages, all civilians, all innocent.
The heroes in the ambulances and in all of Gaza's hospitals are working 12-24 hour shifts, grey from fatigue and inhuman workloads (without payment all in Shifa for the last 4 months), they care, triage, try to understand the incomprehensible chaos of bodies, sizes, limbs, walking, not walking, breathing, not breathing, bleeding, not bleeding humans. HUMANS!
Now, once more treated like animals by "the most moral army in the world" (sic!).
My respect for the wounded is endless, in their contained determination in the midst of pain, agony and shock; my admiration for the staff and volunteers is endless, my closeness to the Palestinian "sumud" gives me strength, although in glimpses I just want to scream, hold someone tight, cry, smell the skin and hair of the warm child, covered in blood, protect ourselves in an endless embrace - but we cannot afford that, nor can they.
Ashy grey faces - Oh NO! Not one more load of tens of maimed and bleeding, we still have lakes of blood on the floor in the ER, piles of dripping, blood-soaked bandages to clear out - oh - the cleaners, everywhere, swiftly shovelling the blood and discarded tissues, hair, clothes,cannulas - the leftovers from death - all taken away ... to be prepared again, to be repeated all over. More then 100 cases came to Shifa in the last 24 hrs. Enough for a large well trained hospital with everything, but here - almost nothing: no electricity, water, disposables, drugs, OR-tables, instruments, monitors - all rusted and as if taken from museums of yesterday's hospitals. But they do not complain, these heroes. They get on with it, like warriors, head on, enormously resolute.
And as I write these words to you, alone, on a bed, my tears flow, the warm but useless tears of pain and grief, of anger and fear. This is not happening!
An then, just now, the orchestra of the Israeli war-machine starts its gruesome symphony again, just now: salvos of artillery from the navy boats just down on the shores, the roaring F16, the sickening drones (Arabic 'Zennanis', the hummers), and the cluttering Apaches. So much made in and paid by the US.
Mr. Obama - do you have a heart?
I invite you - spend one night - just one night - with us in Shifa. Disguised as a cleaner, maybe.
I am convinced, 100%, it would change history.
Nobody with a heart AND power could ever walk away from a night in Shifa without being determined to end the slaughter of the Palestinian people.
But the heartless and merciless have done their calculations and planned another "dahyia" onslaught on Gaza.
The rivers of blood will keep running the coming night. I can hear they have tuned their instruments of death.
Please. Do what you can. This, THIS cannot continue.
Mads Gilbert MD PhD
Professor and Clinical Head
Clinic of Emergency Medicine
University Hospital of North Norway
Original post by Chindits
The UN is not reliable.
After 2006 with Lebanon, it only emerged in later months that hundreds more Hezbollah had died than was reported.
After Cast Lead, the UN found that Hamas 'underestimated' their dead by around 600.
So the UN figure for the ratio of dead civilians to combatants was skewed
After 2006 with Lebanon, it only emerged in later months that hundreds more Hezbollah had died than was reported.
After Cast Lead, the UN found that Hamas 'underestimated' their dead by around 600.
So the UN figure for the ratio of dead civilians to combatants was skewed
Ok
Original post by TheKingOfTSR
Don't get the impression that Hamas threw the first stone, OP!
Where was the media when the Palestinians were driven out of their lands? You people think that the conflict started only when Hamas fired rockets.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Where was the media when the Palestinians were driven out of their lands? You people think that the conflict started only when Hamas fired rockets.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Chindits
Look at these despicable people pack up and run.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=46b_1406060784
Basic gist:
BBC rock up to this Israeli town, start broadcasting their pro-palestinian bull. These two citizens ask if they can give their side of events. The BBC refuses.
The lady rightly lambasts the BBC for ignoring years of rocket attacks and only reporting when Israel starts to retaliate.
Despicable BBC.
Definitely my last thread for the day
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=46b_1406060784
Basic gist:
BBC rock up to this Israeli town, start broadcasting their pro-palestinian bull. These two citizens ask if they can give their side of events. The BBC refuses.
The lady rightly lambasts the BBC for ignoring years of rocket attacks and only reporting when Israel starts to retaliate.
Despicable BBC.
Definitely my last thread for the day
Exactly this. Israel have been bombing and oppressing the Palestinians long before Hamas even existed.
Dr Mads Gilbert
Original post by TheKingOfTSR
Don't get the impression that Hamas threw the first stone, OP!
Where was the media when the Palestinians were driven out of their lands? You people think that the conflict started only when Hamas fired rockets.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Where was the media when the Palestinians were driven out of their lands? You people think that the conflict started only when Hamas fired rockets.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Palestine must learn to be multicultural.
Original post by interact
Israel has been at the root of nearly every conflict in the Middle East, everyone who protests against it does so because they know it is the cause of all the instability in the Middle East, acting on behalf of the USA.
So Iraq invaded Iran because of Israel?
Iraq invaded Kuwait because of Israel?
There is a civil war in Syria because of Israel?
What about the one in Iraq now?
Or the Taliban in Afghanistan?
Or the civil wars in Lebanon?
I would agree that there have been many wars in which Arab states or terrorist groups have fought against Israel. But that is because for some reason the idea of a Jewish country existing in the Middle East seems to be entirely unacceptable to them. They fight Israel because it exists not because of what it does.
Original post by Al-farhan
So it is not a massacre?!
What would you describe it as then?!
What would you describe it as then?!
There is no doubt that civilian death is tragic but it is not a massacre. It is a war. And in wars civilians die. If Israel were intent on massacring Palestinians I'm fairly sure that with all her firepower she would have killed far more of the million or more Palestinians in Gaza. Especially as Gaza is just an open prison, right?
Tell me, what level of deaths per day is acceptable in a war before you would call it a massacre?
Original post by Chindits
QFA
Are you one of those Israeli shills paid for by the government?
Original post by UniOfLife
The same people who protest against Israel also protested against intervention in Libya or Syria and certainly against Iraq. In a strange sort of way you're right but the result is twisted. Israel is vilified precisely because it is better than so many other countries but the people doing the vilification end up believing that Israel is by far the worst.
As for whether the "massacre" would end. Yes, in the short term. If Israel stopped its operations then Palestinians in Gaza would not die. But would the rockets against Israelis civilians stop? No. So what choice do the Israelis have? Should they have to live with those rocket attacks because the only way to stop them or reduce them necessarily involves the death of civilians?
As for whether the "massacre" would end. Yes, in the short term. If Israel stopped its operations then Palestinians in Gaza would not die. But would the rockets against Israelis civilians stop? No. So what choice do the Israelis have? Should they have to live with those rocket attacks because the only way to stop them or reduce them necessarily involves the death of civilians?
Israel is not the worst but its the best - in deceiving the masses. Why then in this group of massacre-planners there isn't any other militarily supported by a super-power while not being criticized for it? Israel is by far the oldest killing machine but yeah not the worst but still the most colorful having the backing of the most powerful men on earth. Other massacre-planners (ISIS, Boko Haram, Donnetsk (?) Republic) are clearly identified as monsters and the world knows their evil and does its best but in the case of Israel the recognition of a monster is not there. Western media has to take a side in any conflict
Of course those who die in Israeli planned massacres would think that Israel is the Devil itself. You can't blame human nature, can you.
Israel has to learn to love its enemies and suffer the consequences of occupying another nation's land. No sweet solution in the horizon while what they are doing currently would only boil Palestinian blood against them. A first step towards peace by the Israeli side would be to drop the label of a "Jewish state".
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by adamsmithqm
If they are not targeting civilians why have over 340 of them been killed?
If the Israelis are targeting civilians then would you like to tell me why out of over a thousand strikes they have only been able to kill 340 supposed civilians?
Original post by RoyalBlue7
Israel is not the worst but its the best - in deceiving the masses. Why then in this group of massacre-planners there isn't any other militarily supported by a super-power while not being criticized for it? Israel is by far the oldest killing machine but yeah not the worst but still the most colorful having the backing of the most powerful men on earth. Other massacre-planners (ISIS, Boko Haram, Donnetsk (?) Republic) are clearly identified as monsters and the world knows their evil and does its best but in the case of Israel the recognition of a monster is not there. Western media has to take a side in any conflict
Of course those who die in Israeli planned massacres would think that Israel is the Devil itself. You can't blame human nature, can you.
Israel has to learn to love its enemies and suffer the consequences of occupying another nation's land. No sweet solution in the horizon while what they are doing currently would only boil Palestinian blood against them. A first step towards peace by the Israeli side would be to drop the label of a "Jewish state".
Of course those who die in Israeli planned massacres would think that Israel is the Devil itself. You can't blame human nature, can you.
Israel has to learn to love its enemies and suffer the consequences of occupying another nation's land. No sweet solution in the horizon while what they are doing currently would only boil Palestinian blood against them. A first step towards peace by the Israeli side would be to drop the label of a "Jewish state".
Well, the big difference between Israel and others is that Israel is a State which is under terrorist attack. It therefore has the right to defend itself from those attacks - whether or not it provoked them in the first place. Remember that the USA went half way around the world to Afghanistan with the claim that it was defending itself from terrorist attack. That is why it does not receive wide condemnation - because every country knows that it would have to do the same in the same position.
But here's a crucial question: If the end goal of Hamas is to create a Palestinian State alongside Israel and end the occupation of the West Bank, how are rocket attacks helping that?
Original post by RoyalBlue7
Well what other terrorist organization has embassies around the world?
The media, the western media, still portrays Israel as the victimized and that's one of catalysts in these protests. What can potentially be achieved in anti-zionism protests is far greater than what can be achieved in say anti-ISIS protests.
The innocent killing could easily be stopped if Israel stops its massacre. Obama need only a call. Just think of that. A minute of the president's time and we save countless innocent lives. Unfortunately there's no clear way to stop the massacres of other monsters.
Its also obvious that Israel is continuing its massacre for political motives. The IDF was itching for some pretext to spill Palestinian blood for a long time to appease the hardliners and their fans in Israel and to ensure that Netanyahu's popularity holds.
The media, the western media, still portrays Israel as the victimized and that's one of catalysts in these protests. What can potentially be achieved in anti-zionism protests is far greater than what can be achieved in say anti-ISIS protests.
The innocent killing could easily be stopped if Israel stops its massacre. Obama need only a call. Just think of that. A minute of the president's time and we save countless innocent lives. Unfortunately there's no clear way to stop the massacres of other monsters.
Its also obvious that Israel is continuing its massacre for political motives. The IDF was itching for some pretext to spill Palestinian blood for a long time to appease the hardliners and their fans in Israel and to ensure that Netanyahu's popularity holds.
You think the killing will stop and there will be peace if Israel stops its "massacre"? Why is everyone blind to the reasoning behind Israel's actions???? It is incredibly strange to me that people bypass every offense that Israels neighbouring countries have waged on it, and just call Israel terrorists.
What political motives do you think Israel have?
Original post by UniOfLife
So Iraq invaded Iran because of Israel?
Iraq invaded Kuwait because of Israel?
There is a civil war in Syria because of Israel?
What about the one in Iraq now?
Or the Taliban in Afghanistan?
Or the civil wars in Lebanon?
I would agree that there have been many wars in which Arab states or terrorist groups have fought against Israel. But that is because for some reason the idea of a Jewish country existing in the Middle East seems to be entirely unacceptable to them. They fight Israel because it exists not because of what it does.
There is no doubt that civilian death is tragic but it is not a massacre. It is a war. And in wars civilians die. If Israel were intent on massacring Palestinians I'm fairly sure that with all her firepower she would have killed far more of the million or more Palestinians in Gaza. Especially as Gaza is just an open prison, right?
Tell me, what level of deaths per day is acceptable in a war before you would call it a massacre?
Iraq invaded Kuwait because of Israel?
There is a civil war in Syria because of Israel?
What about the one in Iraq now?
Or the Taliban in Afghanistan?
Or the civil wars in Lebanon?
I would agree that there have been many wars in which Arab states or terrorist groups have fought against Israel. But that is because for some reason the idea of a Jewish country existing in the Middle East seems to be entirely unacceptable to them. They fight Israel because it exists not because of what it does.
There is no doubt that civilian death is tragic but it is not a massacre. It is a war. And in wars civilians die. If Israel were intent on massacring Palestinians I'm fairly sure that with all her firepower she would have killed far more of the million or more Palestinians in Gaza. Especially as Gaza is just an open prison, right?
Tell me, what level of deaths per day is acceptable in a war before you would call it a massacre?
It is a massacre with media reports of over 600 killed and the true value of the number of dead may well be higher with over 100 children killed.
There is a difference between targeting civilians and war.
And it is quite apparent the carelessness of the IDF targeting.
Youths playing football on the beach were they a legitimate target?
others watching a football match in a cafe were they also a legitimate target?
It is like it was mentioned in the channel 4 news today '' it has become a ghost town people are afraid of going in the open lest they be assumed as hamas and fired upon.
It is as though IDF assumes any gathering or bunch up of civilians are hamas and thus must be target.
I assume the child deaths below count as ''reasonable'' number of casualties and that they were legitimate targets of self defence ?!!
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by CryptoidAlien
Palestine must learn to be multicultural.
How can they be if their leaders (have they opted to remain in their homes) are Zionists? Palestinians and Zionists can never unite. Palestinians need their own state of their own culture.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Sic semper erat
Under 19 years of Jordanian rule, not saying Jerusalem traditionally is a sewage.
The fighting started because King Hussein of Jordan in 1967, who had a pact with Egypt's Nasser, ignored Israeli Prime Minister Eshkol's request that they stay neutral and not start another front in the war. Jordan started by shelling western Jerusalem, forcing some IDF forces in the Sinai to move towards Jerusalem in retaliation for the shelling.
Out of interest what dyou think of the fact that while the West Bank was under Jordanian rule, no one spoke of a Palestinian state?
:
The fighting started because King Hussein of Jordan in 1967, who had a pact with Egypt's Nasser, ignored Israeli Prime Minister Eshkol's request that they stay neutral and not start another front in the war. Jordan started by shelling western Jerusalem, forcing some IDF forces in the Sinai to move towards Jerusalem in retaliation for the shelling.
Out of interest what dyou think of the fact that while the West Bank was under Jordanian rule, no one spoke of a Palestinian state?
:
Only a few people were wise enough to foresee land grabbing by the Zionists. You only need borders when your neighbour tries to steal from you. If there is nothing of a Palestinian state then what's the argument for Israel?
Original post by Al-farhan
It is a massacre with media reports of over 600 killed and the true value of the number of dead may well be higher with over 100 children killed.
There is a difference between targeting civilians and war.
And it is quite apparent the carelessness of the IDF targeting.
Youths playing football on the beach were they a legitimate target?
others watching a football match in a cafe were they also a legitimate target?
It is like it was mentioned in the channel 4 news today '' it has become a ghost town people are afraid of going in the open lest they be assumed as hamas and fired upon.
It is as though IDF assumes any gathering or bunch up of civilians are hamas and thus must be target.
I assume the child deaths below count as ''reasonable'' number of casualties and that they were legitimate targets of self defence ?!!
There is a difference between targeting civilians and war.
And it is quite apparent the carelessness of the IDF targeting.
Youths playing football on the beach were they a legitimate target?
others watching a football match in a cafe were they also a legitimate target?
It is like it was mentioned in the channel 4 news today '' it has become a ghost town people are afraid of going in the open lest they be assumed as hamas and fired upon.
It is as though IDF assumes any gathering or bunch up of civilians are hamas and thus must be target.
I assume the child deaths below count as ''reasonable'' number of casualties and that they were legitimate targets of self defence ?!!
I note you didn't answer my question.
Would it still be a massacre if the death toll was 400?
What about 40?
What about 4?
I am interested to know where you draw the line here, if anywhere.
[QUOTE="TsR001;48678909"]
You can easily blame Hamas, Guerilla tactics? Israel will not stand by and allow its country to be dismantled bit by bit by frequent small scale attacks, you must realise the motives of Hamas before you keep talking about how amazing they are.
Original post by Agapelove
There is no need to personally attack me. I'm not personally attacking anyone.
You arent personally attacking anyone? Neither are the hundreds of INNOCENT civilians Israel are obliterating, so is there no need to personally attack those civilians? Why are they been killed then?
If you aren't brainwashed by the Jewish controlled media, you will realize that Israel are the real terrorists. Lets put this into perspective.... 2, yes TWO civilian deaths on the Israeli side and over 650 on the Palestinian side... Them two civilians are a great excuse for the massacre arent they?
Also, i keep seeing people BS'ing on about this 'human shield' thing.... Firstly, Go research Guerilla tactics if you are too retarded to know what they are. Why the fuc* would Hamas, a tiny force stand up to the immensely powerful and advanced Israeli force?? The only way for them to have a chance to stand up for themselves is using guerilla tactics, by hiding within the civilians. Reminds me of the Vietnam war TBH, the Vietnamese tried to keep the outsiders out, and the ONLY way to stand up to the outsiders was using guerilla tactics, they would have been, obliterated in a pitched battle. I aint a Hamas sympathiser, but you CANNOT blame them for using guerilla tactics against Israel...
Zionist scumbags smd
You arent personally attacking anyone? Neither are the hundreds of INNOCENT civilians Israel are obliterating, so is there no need to personally attack those civilians? Why are they been killed then?
If you aren't brainwashed by the Jewish controlled media, you will realize that Israel are the real terrorists. Lets put this into perspective.... 2, yes TWO civilian deaths on the Israeli side and over 650 on the Palestinian side... Them two civilians are a great excuse for the massacre arent they?
Also, i keep seeing people BS'ing on about this 'human shield' thing.... Firstly, Go research Guerilla tactics if you are too retarded to know what they are. Why the fuc* would Hamas, a tiny force stand up to the immensely powerful and advanced Israeli force?? The only way for them to have a chance to stand up for themselves is using guerilla tactics, by hiding within the civilians. Reminds me of the Vietnam war TBH, the Vietnamese tried to keep the outsiders out, and the ONLY way to stand up to the outsiders was using guerilla tactics, they would have been, obliterated in a pitched battle. I aint a Hamas sympathiser, but you CANNOT blame them for using guerilla tactics against Israel...
Zionist scumbags smd
You can easily blame Hamas, Guerilla tactics? Israel will not stand by and allow its country to be dismantled bit by bit by frequent small scale attacks, you must realise the motives of Hamas before you keep talking about how amazing they are.
Original post by UniOfLife
I note you didn't answer my question.
Would it still be a massacre if the death toll was 400?
What about 40?
What about 4?
I am interested to know where you draw the line here, if anywhere.
Would it still be a massacre if the death toll was 400?
What about 40?
What about 4?
I am interested to know where you draw the line here, if anywhere.
I did answer you in my post.
But if you want I will explain:
I do not not believe in putting a number quota on civilian death a massacre could be perpetrated on ten people as long as the force in overall control, strength and ability kills innocent civilian victims who are helpless to their onslaught.
Plus it is not clear what you are trying to get at from this point?!!
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Sic semper erat
Do you know how big the Sinai is? massive. Bigger than Israel itself by at least 3 times. Israel gave it all away in return for a peace treaty with Egypt. Bit of a strange thing for a land grabber to do lol!
I guess both sides sat down over a cup of sweet egyptian tea and israel signed away the peace treaty without both sides ever going to war.
And therefore when can we expect the next peace treaty tea party for the golan heights?
Original post by TheKingOfTSR
Don't get the impression that Hamas threw the first stone, OP!
Where was the media when the Palestinians were driven out of their lands? You people think that the conflict started only when Hamas fired rockets.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Where was the media when the Palestinians were driven out of their lands? You people think that the conflict started only when Hamas fired rockets.
Posted from TSR Mobile
March 1st 1920. the Jewish village of Tel Hai was attacked by an Arab terrorist group
This is seen as one of the first attacks carried out by Arabs in order to rid the land of the indigenous Jews.
How on earth can Arabs belong in Israel, when Israel is not geographically in Arabia?
Anyway, first significant attack came from the Arabs. They carried out four other raids against Jewish villages after that before the Arab revolt.
The 'palestinians' tried to ethnically cleanse the indigenous Jewish population and failed.
This is why they were later allied with Hitler to have another go - and failed.
Anyway, let's not derail the thread. This is about the cowardly BBC being caught out distributing propaganda and then high-tailing it like the rats that they are.
(edited 9 years ago)
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