Muslims, how do you believe women are worse off in Western society?
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Original post by Kabulkid
she isn't being objectified by men if she doesn't wear a veil but the whole point of it is to make sure that women dress modestly so the sexual attraction is kept to a minimum, it's not just women that are advised to dress modestly, men should also dress modestly and lower their gaze.
she isn't being objectified by men if she doesn't wear a veil but the whole point of it is to make sure that women dress modestly so the sexual attraction is kept to a minimum, it's not just women that are advised to dress modestly, men should also dress modestly and lower their gaze.
Erm actually studies have shown that to lower sexual tension/violence and crime as a whole that nudeism is better then modest dress... so erm yeah
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Original post by Aph
Erm actually studies have shown that to lower sexual tension/violence and crime as a whole that nudeism is better then modest dress... so erm yeah
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cool, so we shud jus all go nude.
Original post by Kabulkid
cool, so we shud jus all go nude.
Apparently, if we want a fairer less sexual awkward and less crime ridden society
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Original post by Aph
Apparently, if we want a fairer less sexual awkward and less crime ridden society
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haha how bout u start it off
Original post by Kabulkid
haha how bout u start it off
Erm
I think I'll let you have that honourPosted from TSR Mobile
Gee, I don't know...some Westerners and TSR users believe that men are oppressed by women.
Original post by Darien
What do you base your knowledge on, in the face of the support female Muslims have for their own way of living? Do you think you know better than them: if so, why?
Oppression is not okay just because it has been institutionalised.
I am a Muslim woman, and i do not feel oppressed in anyway. I wear a veil, however it was my own choice, in fact i used to live in a complete white area, and my school only had one or two Muslims, and my father actually tried to stop me wearing it as he was afraid that i would be picked on!
So it was actually my own choice. I feel that it is important to wear a scarf and non-tight clothes, as this is what my lord would be pleased with, and he knows best, and also because i hear so many stories now-a-days of people being raped, and assaulted, and i understand that wearing modest clothes do not stop me from getting assaulted, however it does make me feel safer in today's western society!
You wouldn't tell a child not to cuddle a teddy bear if they want it at night for their own comfort, so why are you telling me i cant chose to wear a scarf, and that if i do in fact wear a scarf i am being forced to??
Also i would like a link to the report where someone says everyone being nude would lower crime and assault, because i think it would just increase the problem, decease social standards and overall not be good for society in anyway!
Marriage is another reason for veiling and covering oneself. Marriage and life-long relationships are now taken as a joke and something that isn't really seen now-a-days, however studies show that without marriage, and 2 parents together children can actually grow up to have mental problems and social issues. With Islam, marriage is made to be life long, and this is also helped by covering oneself, and it shows that you are 'off limits' so to speak, and just for your husband, and visa-versa, this decreases the chances of divorce and increases the trust between man and wife
I also feel that covering also gives me a feeling of self respect, to the point where i don't need to be showing every feature of myself to get a good job, or have friends or a relationship! i can just be me! I'm also a lot more soft spoken and reserved ,as i know by wearing a scarf i'm kind of repressing Islam, therefore my actions are very planned, which is always good for a society, where manners aren't a huge thing that is look at...
Also i think every women has a choice/ should have a choice, however if you living in an Islamic country you should have respect for the people there and not go out half naked either.
I think that if you don't have a choice to do something , then it is oppression, however most people want to wear the scarf, and dress modestly, and the people that you are referring to as oppressed, are the minority like in every society!
Even in western culture i could say that all the women are being oppressed to wear tight clothing, makeup and high heels, however most of them chose to dress like that, or it is seen as the cultural norm. Well that is the same for dressing modestly and wearing a scarf, in most countries it is seen as the norm, and in other places most people have actually had thew choice!!
Most people on here are talking about how so many women are oppressed, however have you ever talked to a women in REAL life who has said she feels like dressing modestly and covering her hair makes her feel oppressed? to be honest i find it to give me MORE freedom!
I hope you understand my views, they are just that, my views, and i hope i made some sense haha Inshallah what i have written is correct and no one is offended
So it was actually my own choice. I feel that it is important to wear a scarf and non-tight clothes, as this is what my lord would be pleased with, and he knows best, and also because i hear so many stories now-a-days of people being raped, and assaulted, and i understand that wearing modest clothes do not stop me from getting assaulted, however it does make me feel safer in today's western society!
You wouldn't tell a child not to cuddle a teddy bear if they want it at night for their own comfort, so why are you telling me i cant chose to wear a scarf, and that if i do in fact wear a scarf i am being forced to??
Also i would like a link to the report where someone says everyone being nude would lower crime and assault, because i think it would just increase the problem, decease social standards and overall not be good for society in anyway!
Marriage is another reason for veiling and covering oneself. Marriage and life-long relationships are now taken as a joke and something that isn't really seen now-a-days, however studies show that without marriage, and 2 parents together children can actually grow up to have mental problems and social issues. With Islam, marriage is made to be life long, and this is also helped by covering oneself, and it shows that you are 'off limits' so to speak, and just for your husband, and visa-versa, this decreases the chances of divorce and increases the trust between man and wife
I also feel that covering also gives me a feeling of self respect, to the point where i don't need to be showing every feature of myself to get a good job, or have friends or a relationship! i can just be me! I'm also a lot more soft spoken and reserved ,as i know by wearing a scarf i'm kind of repressing Islam, therefore my actions are very planned, which is always good for a society, where manners aren't a huge thing that is look at...
Also i think every women has a choice/ should have a choice, however if you living in an Islamic country you should have respect for the people there and not go out half naked either.
I think that if you don't have a choice to do something , then it is oppression, however most people want to wear the scarf, and dress modestly, and the people that you are referring to as oppressed, are the minority like in every society!
Even in western culture i could say that all the women are being oppressed to wear tight clothing, makeup and high heels, however most of them chose to dress like that, or it is seen as the cultural norm. Well that is the same for dressing modestly and wearing a scarf, in most countries it is seen as the norm, and in other places most people have actually had thew choice!!
Most people on here are talking about how so many women are oppressed, however have you ever talked to a women in REAL life who has said she feels like dressing modestly and covering her hair makes her feel oppressed? to be honest i find it to give me MORE freedom!
I hope you understand my views, they are just that, my views, and i hope i made some sense haha
Inshallah what i have written is correct and no one is offended It's an utterly stupid question
I'm not a Muslim and this post is not about whether I think that Islam is good or bad or anything else for women, but Muslim's will feel that living the Islamic way is better for them and by extension those of them who are women, by fact of them believing that they are following the correct religion.
Honestly, I think Atheists must have low IQ's given the stupid things they ask.
I'm not a Muslim and this post is not about whether I think that Islam is good or bad or anything else for women, but Muslim's will feel that living the Islamic way is better for them and by extension those of them who are women, by fact of them believing that they are following the correct religion.
Honestly, I think Atheists must have low IQ's given the stupid things they ask.
Original post by Darien
Well, OK then, using the same amount of proof as you have just demonstrated, I'll do more than 'try' ..
I disagree.
If you are going to try rebutting, make sure you have genuine, balanced opinion. If you are going to try pretending that women don't like being in the middle east, make sure you have read up on what women in the middle east have to say about the western world butting into their society and trying to stir up dissent.
I disagree.
If you are going to try rebutting, make sure you have genuine, balanced opinion. If you are going to try pretending that women don't like being in the middle east, make sure you have read up on what women in the middle east have to say about the western world butting into their society and trying to stir up dissent.
give me some ways in which the middle east is better than europe/north america/the western world.
Original post by zippity.doodah
give me some ways in which the middle east is better than europe/north america/the western world.
This inst a 'which country is better then the other' debate
What he is trying to say is people LIKE to live in different cultures! for example someone in India might find it better to live there, with the food and work ethic, rather then in Britain!
and also we all have differnt opinions, for example i prefer free flowing clothing, some others prefer revealing clothes, that doesnt mean that im better then anyone else, or that the person wearing tight clothes should hate what i wear.
Original post by 13khana
This inst a 'which country is better then the other' debate
What he is trying to say is people LIKE to live in different cultures! for example someone in India might find it better to live there, with the food and work ethic, rather then in Britain!
and also we all have differnt opinions, for example i prefer free flowing clothing, some others prefer revealing clothes, that doesnt mean that im better then anyone else, or that the person wearing tight clothes should hate what i wear.
What he is trying to say is people LIKE to live in different cultures! for example someone in India might find it better to live there, with the food and work ethic, rather then in Britain!
and also we all have differnt opinions, for example i prefer free flowing clothing, some others prefer revealing clothes, that doesnt mean that im better then anyone else, or that the person wearing tight clothes should hate what i wear.
cultures are not equal when we can all plainly see that happiness and liberty is better than misery and poverty. some revolve around liberty, some revolve around rock-hard conservatism and traditionalism whereby families rule and ruin the lives of their kids, e.g. forced marriages, circumcisions, beatings, etc. if you live eating indian food, or listening to chinese music, there's nothing stopping you experiencing these things in a superior country, unless of course you really *need* to be in a place where there are no white people
Original post by Darien
I was talking of the how incorrect (if not fallacious) it is to judge another society's standards by the standards one was brought up in.
Your response was about "public decency" which is a judgement of social standards.
By the standards of just 50 years ago in even in this country, our current concepts of public decency are 'wrong' and this has probably been much the case throughout history — the social standards of one age is strange ('wrong') to that of another age — and in 50 years' time what is considered public decency will almost certainly be 'wrong' by our current standards. That is within the same cultural background, let alone attempting to make judgements on the social standards of a completely different society.
The only way in which the social mores of another society can be viewed with any realism is from an anthropological viewpoint and from that view, societies in the middle east are generally proving a great deal more resilient and long-lasting than anything in the western world (which is not to knock what we have: there is no sure way to know which is the most sustainable for the next thousand years or more).
Your response was about "public decency" which is a judgement of social standards.
By the standards of just 50 years ago in even in this country, our current concepts of public decency are 'wrong' and this has probably been much the case throughout history — the social standards of one age is strange ('wrong') to that of another age — and in 50 years' time what is considered public decency will almost certainly be 'wrong' by our current standards. That is within the same cultural background, let alone attempting to make judgements on the social standards of a completely different society.
The only way in which the social mores of another society can be viewed with any realism is from an anthropological viewpoint and from that view, societies in the middle east are generally proving a great deal more resilient and long-lasting than anything in the western world (which is not to knock what we have: there is no sure way to know which is the most sustainable for the next thousand years or more).
Mm. Interesting. Maybe you're right.
For argument's sake, let's ignore the whole veil thing for a minute and go back to basics:
women are better off in western society
In the muslim world, women are oppressed. Simple as. Remember a few weeks ago that woman on the news from Sudan who faced the death penalty for not accepting Islam and giving up her Christian faith? (even though she was brought up as a Christian by her mother). If it weren't for international coverage and pressure on Sudan, she most certainly would have been killed. Oh yes, let's not forget that she was also sentenced to 100 lashes for 'adultery' (Sudan didn't recognise her Christian marriage, so her having children with her husband was deemed a crime) and that she was forced to give birth in prison.
That's just one example of women's rights in the muslim world -- ie. non existent.
For those of you delusional enough to think women are better off in muslim countries, let's take a look at some worldwide examples:
Women in Saudi Arabia...
- Require a male guardian (brother, husband, father etc.) and require his permission to go to university, travel, work and to get medical attention
- Have to stand in separate queues in shops, fast food restaurants etc, and are encouraged to go to female-only malls.
- Cannot drive.
- Cannot do the same jobs as men. Women are restricted to working in shops for women (e.g underwear) and must be supervised by men.
- Are forced to wear the burqa (as part of muslim dress)
- Are expected to stay at home, but should not pick up the telephone
- Can't vote (though they will be able to in 2015)
- Can be charged and imprisoned for being raped
Women in Yemen...
- Are only considered as half a witness, and their testimony in court isn't taken seriously unless backed by a man.
- Cannot leave the house without their husband's permission, and can only do so under exceptional circumstances (e.g. to go and care for her parents).
The list is endless, and everything I've stated above is pretty much repeated across all of the Middle East. In fact, if you take a look at the Gender Inequality Index, you'll see that the 10 lowest ranked countries in the world are all muslim nations, with the exception of two -- Congo and Central African Republic.
If there is anyone out there who honestly believes women aren't better off in the west, then there must be something seriously wrong with you...
women are better off in western society
In the muslim world, women are oppressed. Simple as. Remember a few weeks ago that woman on the news from Sudan who faced the death penalty for not accepting Islam and giving up her Christian faith? (even though she was brought up as a Christian by her mother). If it weren't for international coverage and pressure on Sudan, she most certainly would have been killed. Oh yes, let's not forget that she was also sentenced to 100 lashes for 'adultery' (Sudan didn't recognise her Christian marriage, so her having children with her husband was deemed a crime) and that she was forced to give birth in prison.
That's just one example of women's rights in the muslim world -- ie. non existent.
For those of you delusional enough to think women are better off in muslim countries, let's take a look at some worldwide examples:
Women in Saudi Arabia...
- Require a male guardian (brother, husband, father etc.) and require his permission to go to university, travel, work and to get medical attention
- Have to stand in separate queues in shops, fast food restaurants etc, and are encouraged to go to female-only malls.
- Cannot drive.
- Cannot do the same jobs as men. Women are restricted to working in shops for women (e.g underwear) and must be supervised by men.
- Are forced to wear the burqa (as part of muslim dress)
- Are expected to stay at home, but should not pick up the telephone
- Can't vote (though they will be able to in 2015)
- Can be charged and imprisoned for being raped
Women in Yemen...
- Are only considered as half a witness, and their testimony in court isn't taken seriously unless backed by a man.
- Cannot leave the house without their husband's permission, and can only do so under exceptional circumstances (e.g. to go and care for her parents).
The list is endless, and everything I've stated above is pretty much repeated across all of the Middle East. In fact, if you take a look at the Gender Inequality Index, you'll see that the 10 lowest ranked countries in the world are all muslim nations, with the exception of two -- Congo and Central African Republic.
If there is anyone out there who honestly believes women aren't better off in the west, then there must be something seriously wrong with you...
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