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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV
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I'm just someone who's trying to make head and tail out of this whole situation so I request that if you find any factual inaccuracies or anything that seems stupid in this post please correct me nicely, preferably without insulting my intelligence. Right now the only stance I have regarding this is that, innocent people are being killed and it's horrid...
I've been doing a bit of research on the internet and here's some stuff I know;
-Hamas launches rockets into Israel and because of Israel's defense strategies it causes little harm to it's people. (doesn't justify the attacks though)
-Israel counter warns before attacks but these warnings are of little use because Palestinians don't have bomb shelters etc
-Hamas may be going bankrupt and may actually be attacking Israel just so they can use the civilians that are killed when Israel attacks to garner sympathy and monetary aid from around the world.
-This whole thing is about land and not religion even though it's made out to be that in the media etc..
Now here are some question I have;
-Why did Israel counter attack? If Hamas is indeed going bankrupt then wouldn't they have just fizzled out after a couple of feeble attacks on Israel?
-Why is there very little distinction made between Palestinians and Hamas?
-Also terrorists groups can have spoke persons and TV stations and stuff? Why aren't they just killed or arrested when they give interviews etc...
-Why can't the military go to the locations where Hamas hide weapons and confiscate them instead of blowing those places up?
Again I'll like to stress that I'm quite naive when it comes to stuff like this so these question may seem stupid...
I've been doing a bit of research on the internet and here's some stuff I know;
-Hamas launches rockets into Israel and because of Israel's defense strategies it causes little harm to it's people. (doesn't justify the attacks though)
-Israel counter warns before attacks but these warnings are of little use because Palestinians don't have bomb shelters etc
-Hamas may be going bankrupt and may actually be attacking Israel just so they can use the civilians that are killed when Israel attacks to garner sympathy and monetary aid from around the world.
-This whole thing is about land and not religion even though it's made out to be that in the media etc..
Now here are some question I have;
-Why did Israel counter attack? If Hamas is indeed going bankrupt then wouldn't they have just fizzled out after a couple of feeble attacks on Israel?
-Why is there very little distinction made between Palestinians and Hamas?
-Also terrorists groups can have spoke persons and TV stations and stuff? Why aren't they just killed or arrested when they give interviews etc...
-Why can't the military go to the locations where Hamas hide weapons and confiscate them instead of blowing those places up?
Again I'll like to stress that I'm quite naive when it comes to stuff like this so these question may seem stupid...
Original post by Chindits
I'd caution on that 80% figure.
In the last three confrontations between Israel and Hamas/Hezbollah - the death tolls have been readjusted to show more combatants killed than first reported.
It's part of Hamas' propaganda/
They know that if 6 months down the line when word gets out of how many Hamas actually died, the media will not give a damn and Israel will still be thought of as having killed 80% civilians.
In the last three confrontations between Israel and Hamas/Hezbollah - the death tolls have been readjusted to show more combatants killed than first reported.
It's part of Hamas' propaganda/
They know that if 6 months down the line when word gets out of how many Hamas actually died, the media will not give a damn and Israel will still be thought of as having killed 80% civilians.
The UN are reporting the 80% figure. Sure the death toll may change slightly in a few months, they are engaged in a war after all, but I doubt the UN have got it completely wrong.
Original post by #Ridwan
Hamas hides weapons in a UN ran school that was a shelter, knowing that the IDF have technology that identify and target buildings that hide weaponry, and you still defend them?
I have nothing to say to vile animals like you.
I have nothing to say to vile animals like you.
Please present your evidence that there were weapons at that UN ran school in the link I mentioned before making such extraordinary claims.
Also where did I defend Hamas? Stating that I defended Hamas is a downright lie.
Please try harder next time.
Original post by MattBerry96
Where can Palestinians go though? If the IDF has such technology and is so kind to warn Palestinians about impending air strikes, why have 80% of casualties been civilians?
For the record I dont support either side, what both Hamas and Israel do is awful, but it frustrates me when people make out that Israel can do no wrong and that Hamas are the only reason this conflict is going on.
For the record I dont support either side, what both Hamas and Israel do is awful, but it frustrates me when people make out that Israel can do no wrong and that Hamas are the only reason this conflict is going on.
The reason so many civilians are being killed is due to the fact that Hamas chose to house their weapons in and near heavily populated areas. They even broadcast messages telling citizens to stay at home rather than evacuate. It seems that Hamas prioritise the conservation of their weapons rather than their people. Israel have killed citizens and that obviously is horrific, but you have to look at the intent behind it. Israel explicitly state they wish no harm to innocent Palestinian citizens, and that they only wish to target and stop rocket fire. Where as the rockets from Palestine are of low sophistication and are not guided. They're fired into Israel and no one, not even Hamas, know where they'll land. When you look at that, I think you can see that the intention behind the rocket fire is different from both sides. Of course I'm not saying Israel couldn't have avoided killing the innocent civilians that they have, especially the children, but people can't say that Israel has the objective of doing such things.
Original post by MattBerry96
The UN are reporting the 80% figure. Sure the death toll may change slightly in a few months, they are engaged in a war after all, but I doubt the UN have got it completely wrong.
The UN gets their figure from the Hamas health ministry. Hamas skew the figures by lying and of course by hiding who is a combatant and who isn't.
Even their propaganda advice to activists states to make sure that every death is called "an innocent civilian"
After the 2009 conflict, the UN commissioned a report. It harshly criticised Israel. However, later when it emerged Hamas lied to the UN about casualty figures, the report was essentially null and void.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by FishLover
I'm just someone who's trying to make head and tail out of this whole situation so I request that if you find any factual inaccuracies or anything that seems stupid in this post please correct me nicely, preferably without insulting my intelligence. Right now the only stance I have regarding this is that, innocent people are being killed and it's horrid...
I've been doing a bit of research on the internet and here's some stuff I know;
-Hamas launches rockets into Israel and because of Israel's defense strategies it causes little harm to it's people. (doesn't justify the attacks though)
-Israel counter warns before attacks but these warnings are of little use because Palestinians don't have bomb shelters etc
-Hamas may be going bankrupt and may actually be attacking Israel just so they can use the civilians that are killed when Israel attacks to garner sympathy and monetary aid from around the world.
-This whole thing is about land and not religion even though it's made out to be that in the media etc..
Now here are some question I have;
-Why did Israel counter attack? If Hamas is indeed going bankrupt then wouldn't they have just fizzled out after a couple of feeble attacks on Israel?
-Why is there very little distinction made between Palestinians and Hamas?
-Also terrorists groups can have spoke persons and TV stations and stuff? Why aren't they just killed or arrested when they give interviews etc...
-Why can't the military go to the locations where Hamas hide weapons and confiscate them instead of blowing those places up?
Again I'll like to stress that I'm quite naive when it comes to stuff like this so these question may seem stupid...
I've been doing a bit of research on the internet and here's some stuff I know;
-Hamas launches rockets into Israel and because of Israel's defense strategies it causes little harm to it's people. (doesn't justify the attacks though)
-Israel counter warns before attacks but these warnings are of little use because Palestinians don't have bomb shelters etc
-Hamas may be going bankrupt and may actually be attacking Israel just so they can use the civilians that are killed when Israel attacks to garner sympathy and monetary aid from around the world.
-This whole thing is about land and not religion even though it's made out to be that in the media etc..
Now here are some question I have;
-Why did Israel counter attack? If Hamas is indeed going bankrupt then wouldn't they have just fizzled out after a couple of feeble attacks on Israel?
-Why is there very little distinction made between Palestinians and Hamas?
-Also terrorists groups can have spoke persons and TV stations and stuff? Why aren't they just killed or arrested when they give interviews etc...
-Why can't the military go to the locations where Hamas hide weapons and confiscate them instead of blowing those places up?
Again I'll like to stress that I'm quite naive when it comes to stuff like this so these question may seem stupid...
End of the day, when the fighting stops, Israel will continue oppressing the Palestinians both in Gaza and the West Bank. The inhabitants of Gaza will remain blockaded in the world's largest open-air prison, and the inhabitants of the West Bank will continue to have their land stolen illegally by settlers whilst being treated as sub-human by Israel.
This is the historically accurate map.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Chindits
This is the historically accurate map.
This is the historically accurate map.
Since, we are talking about History, you would know the land was promised to the Arabs as long as they helped the British take down the Ottoman Empire.
Original post by Toxic_Legends
Since, we are talking about History, you would know the land was promised to the Arabs as long as they helped the British take down the Ottoman Empire.
And the Brits promised the Jews a bigger share than what they got.
The Jews got over it, the Arabs still revel in their misery.
Original post by Chindits
And the Brits promised the Jews a bigger share than what they got.
The Jews got over it, the Arabs still revel in their misery.
The Jews got over it, the Arabs still revel in their misery.
I have a question. Why do you support Israel? Please answer this honestly, I still cannot get my head around, how people could support such a fascist, racist regime. So, please do explain.
Original post by Chindits
And the Brits promised the Jews a bigger share than what they got.
The Jews got over it, the Arabs still revel in their misery.
The Jews got over it, the Arabs still revel in their misery.
The Jews got over what, that they got free housing and free identities and free weaponry to take down any Arabs in their path to establish the terrorist state of Israel as a legitimate state in the world?
Original post by well in the dark
The Jews got over what, that they got free housing and free identities and free weaponry to take down any Arabs in their path to establish the terrorist state of Israel as a legitimate state in the world?
They do still seem rather butthurt that a few Kibbutznicks and Holocaust survivors defeated the IslamoNazi invasion of combined Arab forces.
They said they would wipe out the Jews in a weekend
Original post by Chindits
The UN gets their figure from the Hamas health ministry. Hamas skew the figures by lying and of course by hiding who is a combatant and who isn't.
Even their propaganda advice to activists states to make sure that every death is called "an innocent civilian"
After the 2009 conflict, the UN commissioned a report. It harshly criticised Israel. However, later when it emerged Hamas lied to the UN about casualty figures, the report was essentially null and void.
Even their propaganda advice to activists states to make sure that every death is called "an innocent civilian"
After the 2009 conflict, the UN commissioned a report. It harshly criticised Israel. However, later when it emerged Hamas lied to the UN about casualty figures, the report was essentially null and void.
Any sources to back that up?
Original post by FishLover
I'm just someone who's trying to make head and tail out of this whole situation so I request that if you find any factual inaccuracies or anything that seems stupid in this post please correct me nicely, preferably without insulting my intelligence. Right now the only stance I have regarding this is that, innocent people are being killed and it's horrid...
I've been doing a bit of research on the internet and here's some stuff I know;
-Hamas launches rockets into Israel and because of Israel's defense strategies it causes little harm to it's people. (doesn't justify the attacks though)
-Israel counter warns before attacks but these warnings are of little use because Palestinians don't have bomb shelters etc
I've been doing a bit of research on the internet and here's some stuff I know;
-Hamas launches rockets into Israel and because of Israel's defense strategies it causes little harm to it's people. (doesn't justify the attacks though)
-Israel counter warns before attacks but these warnings are of little use because Palestinians don't have bomb shelters etc
No, Israel only warns when it wants to. There are innumerable instances when Israel has chosen not to warn before shelling.
Original post by FishLover
-Hamas may be going bankrupt and may actually be attacking Israel just so they can use the civilians that are killed when Israel attacks to garner sympathy and monetary aid from around the world.
Where did you read that? That is mere speculation, nothing more.
Original post by FishLover
-This whole thing is about land and not religion even though it's made out to be that in the media etc..
This whole thing is about much more than land or religion, it is about control in the restless Middle East and the establishment of an even more diabolical world order.
Original post by FishLover
Now here are some question I have;
-Why did Israel counter attack? If Hamas is indeed going bankrupt then wouldn't they have just fizzled out after a couple of feeble attacks on Israel?
-Why did Israel counter attack? If Hamas is indeed going bankrupt then wouldn't they have just fizzled out after a couple of feeble attacks on Israel?
Because obviously that piece of speculation, wherever you heard it from, is untrue.
Israel has been viciously attacking Gaza for the past 7 years of blockade on it.
Original post by FishLover
-Why is there very little distinction made between Palestinians and Hamas?
There is no distinction made by two people: Those who support Hamas as being the Palestinian resistance, and those who think that all Palestinians are terrorists.
Original post by FishLover
-Also terrorists groups can have spoke persons and TV stations and stuff? Why aren't they just killed or arrested when they give interviews etc...
Hamas is only a 'terrorist' group to Israel. Israel is a 'terrorist' group to the Palestinians, yet Israel has arguably got a hold on the majority of the whole world.
Original post by FishLover
-Why can't the military go to the locations where Hamas hide weapons and confiscate them instead of blowing those places up?
Good question.
Probably because they want to kill all of Palestinians and take over Gaza and annex it to the already annexed West Bank, expel all Gazans to Lebanon or Jordan or Egypt and then complain about how the Lebanese and Jordanians or Egyptians are not letting in their Arab brethren.
No, I'm not being irrational; just look up what the Deputy Speaker of the Knesset's plan is regarding Gaza.
Original post by FishLover
I'm just someone who's trying to make head and tail out of this whole situation so I request that if you find any factual inaccuracies or anything that seems stupid in this post please correct me nicely, preferably without insulting my intelligence. Right now the only stance I have regarding this is that, innocent people are being killed and it's horrid...
I've been doing a bit of research on the internet and here's some stuff I know;
I've been doing a bit of research on the internet and here's some stuff I know;
It's always nice when people want to do research into an area. We welcome good discussions in this forum, much to the chagrin of those who seek to devalue the conflict.
-Hamas launches rockets into Israel and because of Israel's defense strategies it causes little harm to it's people. (doesn't justify the attacks though)
HAMAS and various other outfits who operate in that region launches rockets into Israel because it holds them (the civilians) responsible for electing the leaders which have occupied and oppressed Gaza. These groups also target the Israeli military.
-Israel counter warns before attacks but these warnings are of little use because Palestinians don't have bomb shelters etc
The warnings serve no useful purpose. The warning system claimed by the Israeli's is illogical.
It drops thousands on leaflets, sometimes to towns in Israel.
When it manages to warn the right people, it tells them to run away. However, there is nowhere to run to. Egypt has blocked the border on one side and Israel has also blocked the other border. Israel then bombs that part meaning that wherever you are in Gaza, you are not safe.
Furthermore, if Israel warns Palestinians to run away, the people who Israel are supposedly fighting will also run away as they are not stupid enough to remain but then Israel still carries out the airstrikes against a vanished army.
At other times, Israel have warned civilians who have evacuated. Israel has then simply demolished their homes.
There are other times which the time to evacuate has been given at 57 seconds before the "dud missile" and the destruction of the property.
In effect, the "warnings" that are given to Palestinians are either false, too little too late or just an excuse to demolish infrastructure in Gaza so the Palestinians turn on HAMAS.
-Hamas may be going bankrupt and may actually be attacking Israel just so they can use the civilians that are killed when Israel attacks to garner sympathy and monetary aid from around the world.
This may be true but I don't think it was HAMAS who fired the first shot which led to this round of fighting.
-This whole thing is about land and not religion even though it's made out to be that in the media etc..
It's more than that. It's about the slow genocide of Palestinian rights...
Now here are some question I have;
-Why did Israel counter attack? If Hamas is indeed going bankrupt then wouldn't they have just fizzled out after a couple of feeble attacks on Israel?
-Why did Israel counter attack? If Hamas is indeed going bankrupt then wouldn't they have just fizzled out after a couple of feeble attacks on Israel?
Israel didn't "counter attack". They instigated this conflict...
-Why is there very little distinction made between Palestinians and Hamas?
Because it suits the Israeli media to dehumanise the opposition so they can show their citizens that the problem is just not HAMAS, it is the Palestinians as a whole.
-Also terrorists groups can have spoke persons and TV stations and stuff? Why aren't they just killed or arrested when they give interviews etc...
Someone has to air the requests of the organisations involved in the conflict.
-Why can't the military go to the locations where Hamas hide weapons and confiscate them instead of blowing those places up?
Because it's far easier to destroy cache of weapons from the air and ensuring 50 dead Palestinians than risk the life of one soldier.
Again I'll like to stress that I'm quite naive when it comes to stuff like this so these question may seem stupid...
All valid questions...
Original post by MattBerry96
Any sources to back that up?
Hamas admitted last week that between 600 and 700 of its militants were killed during Operation Cast Lead – a figure consistent with that reported by the Israel Defense Forces.
The figure is several times higher than the previous number of fatalities that Hamas claimed it sustained during the operation.
Hamas’ military wing had previously claimed that only 49 of its militants were killed during the three-week operation that the IDF launched in December 2008. Israel had put the figure at 709.
In an interview with the London-based Al-Hayat daily last Monday, however, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad detailed the heavy price his group had paid during the war.
The figure is several times higher than the previous number of fatalities that Hamas claimed it sustained during the operation.
Hamas’ military wing had previously claimed that only 49 of its militants were killed during the three-week operation that the IDF launched in December 2008. Israel had put the figure at 709.
In an interview with the London-based Al-Hayat daily last Monday, however, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hamad detailed the heavy price his group had paid during the war.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/hamas-admits-600-700-of-its-men-were-killed-in-cast-lead-1.323776
The report:
The controversial report received wide support among countries in the United Nations, while Western countries were split between supporters and opponents of the resolutions endorsing the report.[8][9][10][11] Critics of the report claimed that it contained methodological failings, legal and factual errors, and falsehoods, and devoted insufficient attention to the allegations that Hamas was deliberately operating in heavily populated areas of Gaza.[12][13]
On 1 April 2011, Goldstone retracted his claim that it was Israeli government policy to deliberately target citizens, saying "While the investigations published by the Israeli military and recognized in the U.N. committee's report have established the validity of some incidents that we investigated in cases involving individual soldiers, they also indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy."
On 1 April 2011, Goldstone retracted his claim that it was Israeli government policy to deliberately target citizens, saying "While the investigations published by the Israeli military and recognized in the U.N. committee's report have established the validity of some incidents that we investigated in cases involving individual soldiers, they also indicate that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy."
I'm still waiting for you pro-Zionist nutheads to provide evidence for Hamas using human shields, as I have provided evidence for reports that establish that those accusations are either of two things: false, or unsubstantiated, and also brought into light the long lost fact that it is actually the IDF that actively uses Palestinians, especially helpless Palestinian children, as human shields. Not holding my breath.
how does that prove the UN is getting it's data on the death toll from Hamas?
Original post by MattBerry96
how does that prove the UN is getting it's data on the death toll from Hamas?
Jesus.
Because the death toll of 'militants' was underestimated and therefore the death toll of civilians was overestimated.
Original post by Chindits
Jesus.
Because the death toll of 'militants' was underestimated and therefore the death toll of civilians was overestimated.
Because the death toll of 'militants' was underestimated and therefore the death toll of civilians was overestimated.
Yes, the fact Hamas completely underestimated their casualties is clearly true and clearly figures from both Hamas and Israel about losses to their side may not be accurate. However, you still have not provided sufficient evidence to say the UN gets their data from Hamas. If you have a source that clearly states that they do then fair enough but until I see that I'm going with the original figure I mentioned.
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