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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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Original post by felamuzlem
It is only fair that you are disconcerted by the overwhelming amount of support that is coming from all corners of the globe for Gaza and the same amount of condemnation for the fascist state of Israel, so much that you downplay it and act like it isn't even there.
Hundreds of thousands that could possibly amount to millions have come out in support of Palestine. Israeli propaganda no longer has the upper hand thanks to social media.
Be scared. It shows that you're losing and you are aware that you are losing.


Umm...ok false hope then good luck with that. Israel will no doubt survive the conflict and will be here in the future so yeh we are really losing
Original post by MASTER265
Almost every person in the muslim world would do the same to an Israeli so if he did does it really matter, they both hate each other so much


I wouldn't kill an Israeli, I don't even hate Jewish people but their government is committing war crimes for which they need to be questioned and punished.
Original post by MASTER265
Umm...ok false hope then good luck with that. Israel will no doubt survive the conflict and will be here in the future so yeh we are really losing


Israel has suffered, it is scathed and bruised like never before
Original post by Madeline_H95
I believe rockets were fired into Israel (where from? I don't for sure). I condemn rocket fire in the first place. If we are going down this avenue of needing proof and what we believe, I could say you have no proof Israel did kill the civilians. Maybe it was Hamas with a rocket, a misfire, planted explosives, PR stunt to gain more support etc... You have as much evidence to claim 'aggression against civilians' as I do 'Hamas using civilians as human shields.' We go in circles.


There is more than sufficient proof that Israeli rocket fire has killed civilians. There are media reports, UNICEF reports, MSF reports there are plenty of journalists on the ground, very major media outlet in the developed world is there and reporting it. To deny that there is proof Israeli rocket fire has killed civilians borders on the insane.

And you and I both know that Hamas fired the rockets in to Israel.

These are not beliefs. These are facts, let's be distinct.

I believe that firing rockets at civilians is wrong and inexcusable. I believe that Israel's acts are made more reprehensible by the fact they are firing on civilians that do not have a defence force that can sufficiently defend itself.

These are not facts. These are my opinions.
Original post by felamuzlem
Clearly you are so immersed in your propaganda and so embracing of it that you cannot face the facts as opposed to hypotheses and data that are of no real consequence in the real world.
The fact is that there are Christians in Gaza and in many other places in the Middle East whether you like that or not


text from the Wikipedia site which has it's sources at the bibliography at the bottom of the link I have added. The facts say it all

In 2007, about 3,000 Gazans were Christian, out of the total population of 1.5 million.[35] In 2011 The Christian population of Gaza Strip was less than 1,400. Attacks on Christians and their property are rare,[36] with the notable exception of those on The Teacher's Bookshop. A member of the Catholic faith told The Guardian he was stopped by a Hamas official and told to remove a wooden crucifix he was wearing.[37]


The Islamization of Gaza has put increasing pressure on the tiny Christian minority.[38] Following the Hamas takeover of Gaza in 2007, Abu Saqer, leader of Jihadia Salafiya, a rival group to Hamas,[39] announced the opening of a "military wing" to enforce Muslim law in Gaza. "I expect our Christian neighbors to understand the new Hamas rule means real changes. They must be ready for Islamic rule if they want to live in peace in Gaza." [40] Sheik Saqer has asserted that there is "no need" for Christians in Gaza to maintain Christian institutions and demanded that Hamas "must work to impose an Islamic rule or it will lose the authority it has and the will of the people."[41]


In October 2007, Rami Khader Ayyad, owner of Gaza's only Christian bookstore, was abducted, beaten and murdered, after his bookstore was firebombed by an unidentified group attacking targets associated with Western influence. According to Ayyad's family and neighbors, he had regularly received anonymous death threats from people angered by his missionary work. Ismail Haniyeh, leader of Hamas in Gaza, condemned Ayyad's killing and said Hamas "would not allow anyone to sabotage Muslim-Christian relations." Hamas officials made visits to Christian community, and its spokesman promised to bring those responsible to justice. No group claimed responsibility for the murder.[35][42][43][44]


Ayyad's funeral was attended by 300 Muslims and Christians. The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights stated "This ugly act has no support by any religious group here."[36]


In 2012, a public protest was organized by dozens of Christians who claimed that two Christians were forcibly converted to Islam and were being held against their will. According to two mediators, the two Christians embraced Islam of their own free will. The conversions have the minority Christian population worried, and Huda Al-Amash, the mother of one of the converts, Ramez, stated, "If things remain like this, there'll be no Christians left in Gaza." Gaza's Archbishop Alexious said that the converts should be returned to their families.[45][46]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_the_Gaza_Strip#Effects_on_Christian_population
Original post by Roger1
I'm gonna get banned by the pro Israel mods for venting my feelings about Israel on here so I rather not say anything.


Are you Palestinian? No. Are you Israeli? No. Are you directly affected by the events happening in the area? No. Good. No one gives a **** about your opinions on Israel.
I feel sorry for the horse that's running for it's life.
Original post by felamuzlem
Israel has suffered, it is scathed and bruised like never before


My last reply gave evidence of the poor treatment to the Christian community. Give me an answer to that now if you can or are you going to deny as you keep doing.
Original post by The_Mediocre_One
I wouldn't kill an Israeli, I don't even hate Jewish people but their government is committing war crimes for which they need to be questioned and punished.


Majority on here have shown to be anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli, pro hitler and I have seen countless posts saying Israel needs to be destroyed so clearly death is very much prohibited
Original post by Pinzgauer
The bitter irony is that Hamas claims to be victims of Israeli aggression - yet have rejected a humanitarian ceasefire.

Obviously it's much easier to cope with when you're living in a hotel in Qatar.


The bitter irony is that you seem to think Hamas has no rights in this war when it is blatanltly a war no matter how assymetric the conflict
Hamas has as much rights as Israel to not accept truces if Hamas sees no benefit come of those truces
Israel has rejected truces as Hamas has rejected truces
You are in no position to dictate who is justified in rejected a truce who isn't

Hamas does not have to make any claims as it is already markedly obvious that Israel is the chief aggressor here
You think you can blame Israel's aggression on Hamas but you cannot
Israel is solely responsible for its aggression and for its manic rampages
Original post by MASTER265
Majority on here have shown to be anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli, pro hitler and I have seen countless posts saying Israel needs to be destroyed so clearly death is very much prohibited


I think more than anything they are reacting emotionally to the barbaric killing of innocent people.
Original post by ThatPerson
I feel sorry for the horse that's running for it's life.


Not the people losing their lives? hmmm
Original post by Stiff Little Fingers
The IRA were not a government - governments are not classed as terrorist organisations.


They should be. Governments are the biggest perpetrators of terrorism.
Original post by The_Mediocre_One
I think more than anything they are reacting emotionally to the barbaric killing of innocent people.


At first that's what I would think but from what I've seen these people are sucked in to ISIS and the likes of Hamas so they are very much a potential threat. I know various Muslims locally who have left for the Middle East region to join these groups. I know there are nice Muslims but why is it I see everyday all day violence, death and extremism linked with Islam. Please don't say they are not Muslims because you can't just dismiss them as a follower immediately after they commit the acts, like saying an English murderer is no longer English after being found guilty.
Original post by MASTER265
My last reply gave evidence of the poor treatment to the Christian community. Give me an answer to that now if you can or are you going to deny as you keep doing.


They are well-documented incidents and Wikipedia's conciseness does them no justice
I am not going to squabble with you as you are free to wallow in your bigotry as much as you like
Suffice to say that there was no forced conversion, just paranoid families in denial. That was the conclusion, but they don't put it up on Wikipedia, the Zionists who edit those pages
Original post by felamuzlem
They are well-documented incidents and Wikipedia's conciseness does them no justice
I am not going to squabble with you as you are free to wallow in your bigotry as much as you like
Suffice to say that there was no forced conversion, just paranoid families in denial. That was the conclusion, but they don't put it up on Wikipedia, the Zionists who edit those pages


In the modern day society a population grows exponentially because of medical advances, sanitary advances and basic birth rates yet the Gaza Christian population decreased exponentially. How do you explain this, did they all leave and why did they leave? Clearly Gaza is no place for Christians.
Reply 2556
Avatar for JC.
JC.
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This has been going on for years.
Neither side will be happy until the other are dead.

Why not just get on with it. Have a war, see who wins and draw a line under it all.
Original post by MASTER265
In the modern day society a population grows exponentially because of medical advances, sanitary advances and basic birth rates yet the Gaza Christian population decreased exponentially. How do you explain this, did they all leave and why did they leave? Clearly Gaza is no place for Christians.


As I have already made clear to you I do not wish to squabble with bigots as that would get me no where
The point is that Israel is not a democracy any more than many other Arab countries so making it out to be some sort of shining beacon of hope is not a correct thing to do
It is what the early Zionists did when they were going about trying to create the state of Israel
Israel is the only Middle Eastern country killing people with impunity and with the blessings of the West
Original post by Et Tu, Brute?
Annnnnnnnnnd the circle is complete, back to the start.

If Israel didn't oppress their Arab population as they do, the Arab population would see no reason to support the nationalistic ideology that calls for Israel to be removed. If a government which is seen as foreign is oppressing you, you will seek to have your own people rule over you, if everyone is treated equally there is no mass support for organisations such as Hamas and nationalist ideas.


It is a circle, you're right. That's why it all seems so futile and impossible to defuse.

I'm not really pro-Israel, I would say I'm anti-Hamas though. Heres the problem as I see it.

Co-founder [of Hamas] Sheik Ahmed Yassin stated in 1987, and the Hamas Charter affirmed in 1988, that Hamas was founded to liberate Palestine from Israeli occupation and to establish an Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.

(From wikipedia admitedly but there is probably more reliable sources I don't have the time/motivation to track down.)

1: Liberate Palestinian territory of all Israeli occupation.
2: Eliminate Israel and establish Hamas led Islamic state in its place.


- Liberation from Israeli occupation is achievable and is something that could very feasibly be negotiated by an internationally mediated peace treaty.

- The deposition of Israel and establishment of a Hamas led Islamic state in it's place will never happen. It cannot be achieved diplomatically because Israel, obviously, won't agree to it qnd no mediating nation would even consider proposing it as a term anyway. It cannot be achieved by force as Hamas do not have the man or military power to overthrow Israel themselves. If they ever did, the west would intervene.

Hamas does have members who want peace over the eradication of Israel. They are not the ones with the most power though and they are the minority. Subsequently their efforts to promote peace are fairly limited and otherwise suffocated by the voracious desire to obliterate Israel by the powerful majority. This majority do not want the destruction of Israel just as vengeance for the Palestinian deaths they [Israel] have brought about. It is a fundamental, founding principle of Hamas that they should destroy Israel. The reason is no longer important to them, meaning they cannot be reasoned with.

This is why I find it very difficult to see any resolution to this conflict that doesn't involve the disbanding/elimination of Hamas. The best case scenario is that the more reasonable Hamas members gain support in favour of establishing peace and take up the helm within Hamas. The fact that this has not happened already, combined with the success Hamas are having at forcing Israel into continuing to kill Palestinian civillians* (and thereby generating greater intensity behind the anti-Israel mood in Palestine) suggests it never will.

*I beleive Hamas know exactly what they are doing launching from hospitals, schools etc. Knowing full well that Israel will strike back against that region.

Hamas can't beat Isreal by force with crappy rockets and tunnels, they can win a propaganda war with dead Palestinians. I think Israel are stuck in an impossible position currently. Albeit a position they brought on themselves by not taking the time to investigate the murder of those 3 boys, they just went balls first into military action again with no proper investigation. If Israel do retaliate as they are currently, the international community becomes more and more skeptical about Israel's legitimacy. The delicate complexity of this conflict escapes most western media consumers who just see dead women and children in Gaza and asume the onus is on Israel to end it, it's not. If Israel do not retaliate, they are succumbing to Hamas' propaganda efforts and will risk a far greater number of Israeli casualties.

Both sides a culpable in this horrible, horrible mess.
(edited 9 years ago)
Are you people deaf?

The laughing is clearly audible.

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