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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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Lol you're happy to bash a stranger online for something said stranger never professed, you certainly are a queer one. Must be PMSing?

Are you denying you support the destruction of Israel (which means genocide and occupation of Palestinian Christians)?

You are an apologist for genocide and occupation of Palestinian Christians in Gaza.

Nice reference to female menstruation, by the way. Thanks for confirming your hatred and disgust for female anatomy, which is common amongst Muslim fundamentalists.

Reply 2741

filthy_pup

Original post by Quaintsaintrah

Lol you're hysterical, call samaritans ASAP

Hysterical? Is that what you call a woman who is "PMSing"?

Mate, you've discredited yourself completely and shown precisely why the world won't intervene to help you. They won't intervene to help 7th century terrorists, terrorists who hate woman and force them to wear veils and murder them if they dare have a relationship with a man their father doesn't approve of.

The only hysterical person here is the 7th century terrorist :smile:

God knows why they let people like you and your parents into advanced areas of the planet

Reply 2742

filthy_pup

Original post by Quaintsaintrah

call samaritans

The Samaritans who side with Israel?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans

Reply 2743

Agapelove

Original post by getfunky!

Well advancements should be achieved without the influence of politics.

While some inventions (like the American Wright brothers making the first relatively successful airplane) have not been funded by the government, the government does fund inventors, so politics is often a part of technology advancements. Also, advanced weapons are products of politics. For example, the first atom bombs are due to the politics involved in World War II.

As for the concept of freedom and democracy, they are not the same thing, democracy itself is a flawed concept as it cannot represent the views of every citizen in the country or even worse it cannot represent the majority of voters.

Democracy is better and more freeing than a human dictator. Muhammad, by the way, was a dictator, once he had the power to be.

And you should continue to do so :yep:

as every politician should be held accountable for their actions.

Agreed.

This is a red herring, at the time those countries were conquered the world was far different and political influence was restricted

The past strongly affects the present.

and where there were no international watchdogs/governing bodies to the extent that we have now.

True. however, the international watchdogs have not stopped war, sad to say.

Empires fighting was a common spectacle.

Still is.

The number of Arab countries should not influence your view on the current predicament,

I am free to consider all angles of the issue. The fact that there are many Arab states and the only Jewish state is being attacked by them does bother me and does influence my view, whether or not you think it should.

the rights of Palestinians and Israelis is the issue,

Agreed, as well as how many Arab states there are, which are currently the main states/countries attacking the only Jewish state.

and the use of "conquered" should not be used here

Research all the conquests of the Muslim Arabs on other people groups. Conquered is most definitely the word, same as how the English conquered other people groups and built her own empire. Now, I would not try to tell you what you should or should not write/consider, since I respect your freedom of speech and thought, even though I disagree with some of your points. I would appreciate the same from you to me. Thank you.

As both state that they wish to live in peace. However, the continued oppression of the Palestinians through economic sanctions and controlled borders cannot continue, it is illogical to think that people will accept oppression without fighting back,as in cases where daily food intake is limited,

Good points.

the waters that border your country are governed by a foreign nation,

The land of Palestine (named such by the Roman empire, after the Philistines) has been governed by foreign nations for at the very least two thousand years.

and where land your family has owned for generations is stolen and handed over to an immigrant that claims the land on the basis that his ancestors may have lived there.

The British Empire had control of the land at the that time. I'm not saying it was right for the British Empire to have the land, but before that, the Ottoman Empire had control of the land. Empires still exist today. The British Empire does still exist, though weakened. Now, the US Empire exists and supports Israel. How long the US empire will exist and/or continue to support Israel, God knows. However, Israel is currently an ally to both the English/British Empire and the US empire.

Jews and Arabs have lived alongside each other for centuries without any qualms,

During the first regeneration of Israel, an Arab did have an issue with the rebuilding of Jerusalem's walls by the Jews:
(I boldened some.)

19: But when Sanballat the Horonite, and Tobiah the servant, the Ammonite, and Geshem the Arabian, heard it, they laughed us to scorn, and despised us, and said: 'What is this thing that ye do? will ye rebel against the king?'

20: Then answered I them, and said unto them: 'The G-d of heaven, He will prosper us; therefore we His servants will arise and build; but ye have no portion, nor right, nor memorial, in Jerusalem.'
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Nehemiah2.html

However, since after the second destruction of the nation of Israel till the second regeneration of Israel it is true that Arabs and Jewish people in the Roman-named Palestine have lived together in relative peace. Just like Geshem the Arabian did not approve though of the first regeneration of Israel, so many Arabs in Palestine do not approve of the second regeneration of Israel.

however the opposition to the state of Israel is not an opposition to a Jewish homeland or for Jews to live in the region, rather it is an opposition to the inhumane treatment of Palestinian people by the Zionist Israelis. Not all Jews are Zionists, nor are all Zionists Jews.

Why then the desire to wipe Israel off the map and eliminate the state of Israel? Why not instead simply protest the inhumane treatment of the Palestinian people by Israel and recognize Israel as the only Jewish state?

This has nothing to do with the concept of Jihad, which is largely a personal struggle in the path to God.

Jihad is also a physical struggle, hence the verses in the Qur'an to fight:
(I boldened some.)

2:190 (Y. Ali) Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
2:191 (Y. Ali) And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
2:193 (Y. Ali) And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

2:216 (Y. Ali) Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

2:244 (Y. Ali) Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.

3:167 (Y. Ali) And the Hypocrites also. These were told: "Come, fight in the way of Allah, or (at least) drive (The foe from your city)." They said: "Had we known how to fight, we should certainly have followed you." They were that day nearer to Unbelief than to Faith, saying with their lips what was not in their hearts but Allah hath full knowledge of all they conceal.
3:168 (Y. Ali) (They are) the ones that say, (of their brethren slain), while they themselves sit (at ease): "If only they had listened to us they would not have been slain." Say: "Avert death from your own selves, if ye speak the truth."
3:169 (Y. Ali) Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;
3:170 (Y. Ali) They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. And with regard to those left behind, who have not yet joined them (in their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve.

4:74 (Y. Ali) Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
4:75 (Y. Ali) And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

4:76 (Y. Ali) Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.

4:77 (Y. Ali) Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (from fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as - or even more than - they should have feared Allah. They said: "Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordered us to fight? Wouldst Thou not Grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: Never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least!

4:84 (Y. Ali) Then fight in Allah's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.

4:89 (Y. Ali) They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

4:95 (Y. Ali) Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-

8:38 (Y. Ali) Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).
8:39 (Y. Ali) And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.

8:65 (Y. Ali) O Messenger. rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.
8:66 (Y. Ali) For the present, Allah hath lightened your (task), for He knoweth that there is a weak spot in you: But (even so), if there are a hundred of you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred, and if a thousand, they will vanquish two thousand, with the leave of Allah. for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.
8:67 (Y. Ali) It is not fitting for an apostle that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.
8:68 (Y. Ali) Had it not been for a previous ordainment from Allah, a severe penalty would have reached you for the (ransom) that ye took.
8:69 (Y. Ali) But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear Allah. for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
8:70 (Y. Ali) O Messenger. say to those who are captives in your hands: "If Allah findeth any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."
8:71 (Y. Ali) But if they have treacherous designs against thee, (O Messenger.), they have already been in treason against Allah, and so hath He given (thee) power over them. And Allah so He Who hath (full) knowledge and wisdom.

8:72 (Y. Ali) Those who believed, and adopted exile, and fought for the Faith, with their property and their persons, in the cause of Allah, as well as those who gave (them) asylum and aid,- these are (all) friends and protectors, one of another. As to those who believed but came not into exile, ye owe no duty of protection to them until they come into exile; but if they seek your aid in religion, it is your duty to help them, except against a people with whom ye have a treaty of mutual alliance. And (remember) Allah seeth all that ye do.
8:73 (Y. Ali) The Unbelievers are protectors, one of another: Unless ye do this, (protect each other), there would be tumult and oppression on earth, and great mischief.

8:74 (Y. Ali) Those who believe, and adopt exile, and fight for the Faith, in the cause of Allah as well as those who give (them) asylum and aid,- these are (all) in very truth the Believers: for them is the forgiveness of sins and a provision most generous.

8:75 (Y. Ali) And those who accept Faith subsequently, and adopt exile, and fight for the Faith in your company,- they are of you. But kindred by blood have prior rights against each other in the Book of Allah. Verily Allah is well-acquainted with all things.

9:5 (Y. Ali) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:13 (Y. Ali) Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!
9:14 (Y. Ali) Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,

9:29 (Y. Ali) Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
9:30 (Y. Ali) The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

9:44 (Y. Ali) Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day ask thee for no exemption from fighting with their goods and persons. And Allah knoweth well those who do their duty.
9:45 (Y. Ali) Only those ask thee for exemption who believe not in Allah and the Last Day, and whose hearts are in doubt, so that they are tossed in their doubts to and fro.

9:81 (Y. Ali) Those who were left behind (in the Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah. they hated to strive and fight, with their goods and their persons, in the cause of Allah. they said, "Go not forth in the heat." Say, "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand!

9:82 (Y. Ali) Let them laugh a little: much will they weep: a recompense for the (evil) that they do.

9:83 (Y. Ali) If, then, Allah bring thee back to any of them, and they ask thy permission to come out (with thee), say: "Never shall ye come out with me, nor fight an enemy with me: for ye preferred to sit inactive on the first occasion: Then sit ye (now) with those who lag behind."

9:86 (Y. Ali) When a Sura comes down, enjoining them to believe in Allah and to strive and fight along with His Messenger, those with wealth and influence among them ask thee for exemption, and say: "Leave us (behind): we would be with those who sit (at home)."
9:87 (Y. Ali) They prefer to be with (the women), who remain behind (at home): their hearts are sealed and so they understand not.
9:88 (Y. Ali) But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper.

9:123 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

33:26 (Y. Ali) And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners.
33:27 (Y. Ali) And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things.

47:4 (Y. Ali) Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.

47:20 (Y. Ali) Those who believe say, "Why is not a sura sent down (for us)?" But when a sura of basic or categorical meaning is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein, thou wilt see those in whose hearts is a disease looking at thee with a look of one in swoon at the approach of death. But more fitting for them-

48:15 (Y. Ali) Those who lagged behind (will say), when ye (are free to) march and take booty (in war): "Permit us to follow you." They wish to change Allah's decree: Say: "Not thus will ye follow us: Allah has already declared (this) beforehand": then they will say, "But ye are jealous of us." Nay, but little do they understand (such things).

48:16 (Y. Ali) Say to the desert Arabs who lagged behind: "Ye shall be summoned (to fight) against a people given to vehement war: then shall ye fight, or they shall submit. Then if ye show obedience, Allah will grant you a goodly reward, but if ye turn back as ye did before, He will punish you with a grievous Penalty."
48:17 (Y. Ali) No blame is there on the blind, nor is there blame on the lame, nor on one ill (if he joins not the war): But he that obeys Allah and his Messenger,- ((Allah)) will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; and he who turns back, ((Allah)) will punish him with a grievous Penalty.

59:2 (Y. Ali) It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering (of the forces). Little did ye think that they would get out: And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah. But the (Wrath of) Allah came to them from quarters from which they little expected (it), and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers, take warning, then, O ye with eyes (to see)!
59:3 (Y. Ali) And had it not been that Allah had decreed banishment for them, He would certainly have punished them in this world: And in the Hereafter they shall (certainly) have the Punishment of the Fire.

59:4 (Y. Ali) That is because they resisted Allah and His Messenger. and if any one resists Allah, verily Allah is severe in Punishment.

61:4 (Y. Ali) Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.

Tbe above are not all the verses in the Qur'an concerning fighting, but it is safe to say that fighting other people who did not accept Muhammad's claims is dictated in the Qur'an.

The current predicament is not a religious conflict, rather it is a conflict of politics.

Islam is both a religion and a political system. Hamas has complete justification in the Qur'an for fighting against the Jewish people who do not accept Muhammad's claims and do not submit under Islam.

The feeling of isolation is an effect from the silence of Western governments. When Obama chooses to veto economic sanctions on Israel, the same sanctions that they would place on Russia, Iran, or Iraq, as well as remaining silent on the atrocious treatment of Palestinians, then it helps the Palestinians feel isolated.

Again, Israel is an ally to the USA. As far as I know, Russia is not an ally to the USA and hasn't been since the Cold War begun. While the Cold War has ended, tensions between Russia and the USA are growing yet again.

When the US chooses to claim it is a peace endorsing nation, yet continues to sell nuclear armaments and munition to Israel which are in turn killing civilians, then it promoting a notion of solidarity with Israel and distancing itself from the Palestinians.

While I personally think the USA is not completely a peace endorsing nation, there are some military people who think that nukes prevent attacks. However, it makes me ashamed that both the USA and Israel and Palestinians (and other countries) have and do kill other people. Jesus Christ commands his followers to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37). Obviously, killing one's enemies is disobeying Jesus' command.

It is evident from Israels brief history that it have pursued to push borders into neighbouring countries. Though more importantly it continues to ignore the internationally recognised borders of Palestine, which it must adhere to if it wants to ultimately live in peace within the region.

Arab countries attacked Israel, which Israel 'won' in the 6 day war. Gaza was a part of the land they 'won'. The USA 'won' land from Spain, which expanded her empire. While sadly nations fight against each other and take each other's land, it would be hypocritical for the USA, the British Empire and the Muslim Empire to judge Israel for taking land when they have done the same in the past. Sadly, empires in general do not obey Jesus' command to love their enemies. Rather, they fight them and take land and possessions from them. :frown:

This is not a good thing in my opinion, either for the English to to do or the Americans or the Muslim Arabs or Israel, but they do it anyways.

The Jews have lived there for many centuries and have lived peacefully with their Arab neighbours, The Arabs have welcomed them as evident from history, where the Jews flourished in Spain, Portugal, as well as Jerusalem under Muslim rule.

Jewish people have flourished much more in Western rule, after the Enlightenment than they have under Muslim rule. Muslim rule put limitations on their freedoms, whereas Western democray allows them to rule alongs Gentiles.

The problem that Orthodox Jews have is that the state of Israel is not just using their faith but rather is using the martyrdom of Jews during the last century to justify the creation of the state of Israel at the expense of Palestinians.

The Orthodox Jews in general reject Yeshua (Jesus Christ) as the Messiah. While I respect their opinions and their right to reject Jesus Christ as well as the nation Israel, I do not share their opinion of either Jesus Christ or the nation of Israel.

Slavery existed before the advent of Islam,

True, and Islam did not eliminate slavery.

it only preferred to add more responsibility to the slave owner and give more rights to the slave:

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It is best to follow Jesus' command to do to others what you would want them to do to you (Luke 6:31). Since I do not want to be enslaved, I will not enslave others. Muhammad though enslaved others. :frown:

The Jizya tax was levied only on non-Muslims living in the Muslims lands, as such there were many exemptions - Women, children, monks/priests were exempt, as well as those who were considered too old. As for those who did pay the tax, they were also exempt from joining the army, and were free to live in the land in exchange for security by the Muslim army.

The jizya ransom cannot be demanded by Muslims in Non-muslim lands, hmm? Women and children often live with their husbands or fathers, so actually they were not exempt. What affects men affects the women and their offspring too.

Muslims do not need to claim that the OT/NT has been corrupted or changed many times, The claim of apocryphal statements is expounded in the bible itself, and said to be serious mistakes, with backing of many denominations to either change the verse or remove it completely. For example, the only place where the Trinity was incontrovertibly mentioned was 1 John 5:7 - 'For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.' - was removed by Church leaders themselves.

Differences in translations does not mean that God's Word has been corrupted or changed. Rather, it means people translate differently, same as the Qur'an has been translated differently (see the differences between Asad and Y. Ali.)

Furthermore there are two versions of the Bible, one is the version of the Catholics which includes the 7 books considered Apocrypha by Protestants, and subsequently removed in their version of the Bible.

Do any of the 7 books called the Apocrypha talk about Jesus Christ or are the Law God gave to the children of Israel through Moses?

The Muslims didn't remove the verses or tell Christians that they should be considered apocryphal, Christians did so themselves.

There are many ancient writings of the Jewish people and of the Christians. Not every ancient writing is God's Word. Do you consider the hadiths of the Muslims to be the Word of God? The writings in question are considered by Protestants and many Jewish people to not be authentically the Word of God, but rather more like hadiths.The Hebrew Bible is what Jesus Christ called the Scriptures.

Please see the following chart, and you will note that the Hebrew Bible does not contain the apocrypha.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon2.html

The Greek Septuigint does contain some of the apocrpha, but God protected the Jewish Scriptures in spite of the presence of the apocrypha in the Greek Septuigint, Latin Vulgate and in the Catholic Bible. The apocrypha were writings like the hadith.

A Jewish state does not scare them, they oppose a modern-Zionist state that cannot give fair treatment to Palestinians.

If Palestinians did not attack the Israelis, it would be much easier for Israel to give the Palestinians fair treatment. Both sides however are to blame for attacking and fighting each other. :frown:

As it also constantly allies itself with those same nations that have invaded countries in the region during recent times.

Fair enough. I know some Muslims do hate the USA, and hate the UK too, though many have chosen to immigrate to these countries.

I hope I don't seem brash in this reply :biggrin:

salaam/shalom/peace :hat:

Salaam/Shalom to you as well, and thanks for the thoughtful discussion. Blessings :smile:

Reply 2744

Agapelove

Original post by filthy_pup

It's also a bizarre preoccupation of theirs given that this present conflict kicked off when Hamas started launching hundreds of rockets at Israel, not after the kidnapping and murder of three innocent Israeli teenage boys

I personally wish that Israel had followed Jesus' command to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37) after these boys were murdered. The uncle of one of the boys did love and forgive the hateful Palestinians who murdered his son, and also tried to comfort the family of the Palestinian boy murdered for revenge by hateful people.

http://forward.com/articles/201500/families-of-slain-israeli-and-palestinian-teens-tu/

(I boldened some.)

'The families of murdered Israeli teen Naftali Fraenkel and murdered Palestinian teen Mohammed Abu Khdeir are drawing comfort from an unexpected source: each other.
Jerusalem mayor Nir Barkat took to Facebook on Sunday to write about an “emotional and special telephone conversation between two families that have lost their sons.” He said that during his visit to the Fraenkel family home, he had a chance to speak to Hussein Abu Khdeir, Mohammed’s father, and express pain at the “barbaric” murder of his son.
Barkat then suggested that Abu Khdeir speak to Yishai Fraenkel, the uncle of Naftali Fraenkel who recently told the press that “the life of an Arab is equally precious to that of a Jew. Blood is blood, and murder is murder, whether that murder is Jewish or Arab.” The two men took Barkat’s advice and comforted one another by telephone.'

This is what Israel and Palestine need: they need love and forgiveness and caring for each other. They need to STOP killing each other and hurting each other. They need to forgive and love each other and stop the cycle of revenge and hatred.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 2745

TheTechN1304

Original post by Quaintsaintrah

'Eid Mubarak' to what's left of the Muslims in Gaza, and curses on the oppressive Zionist enemy

You're talking as if Israel are the enemy...you, sir, are wrong. Very wrong indeed.

Reply 2746

filthy_pup

Original post by Agapelove

I personally wish that Israel had followed Jesus' command to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37) after these boys were murdered

What are you talking about? Israel did. You do realise this present conflict didn't start because of the murder of the three boys, it started when Hamas commenced a rocket bombardment of Israel two weeks after that?

It sounds to me like you're deeply confused about the timeline

The uncle of one of the boys did love and forgive the hateful Palestinians who murdered his son, and also tried to comfort the family of the Palestinian boy murdered for revenge by hateful people.

Precisely. And Netanyahu himself called the family to apologise for the death fo the Palestinian boy, and the Israeli police arrested the murderers. Somehow, the killers of the Israeli boys haven't yet been apprehended, as Palestinians continue to give shelter and succour to the murderers.

Again, you seem to be confused about the timeline. Israel didn't attack in response to the death of the three boys, it attacked in response to Hamas commencing a rocket bombardment

Please try to keep up

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 2747

Quaintsaintrah

Original post by TheTechN1304

You're talking as if Israel are the enemy...you, sir, are wrong. Very wrong indeed.

Yus Israel is the enemy though admittedly not the only enemy. Israel killed more than one thousand people in twenty days. Israel is the enemy of not only Palestinians but humankind in general if they think they can commit crimes of this horrendous scale and still show no remorse. Yes certainly Isral is The Enemy.

Reply 2748

TheTechN1304

Original post by Quaintsaintrah

I'd like to remind you that Palestine started the conflict. It's their own goddamn fault that their people are dying! There was a ceasefire, and - surprise, surprise - Hamas broke it and decided to fire more rockets into Israel!

Reply 2749

Agapelove

Original post by filthy_pup

What are you talking about? Israel did.

Killing the Palestinians does not equal loving them.

You do realise this present conflict didn't start because of the murder of the three boys, it started when Hamas commenced a rocket bombardment of Israel two weeks after that?

Obviously Hamas is not loving their enemies, and obviously the Israeli reply of sending rockets, then tanks and soldiers who are shooting into Gaza is not loving their enemies.

It sounds to me like you're deeply confused about the timeline

Personal jabs are not professional in debates.

It's obvious neither group is loving each other.

Precisely. And Netanyahu himself called the family to apologise for the death fo the Palestinian boy,

Which is awesome. What about the deaths of other Palestinians via rockets and tanks and soldier's guns???? Why doesn't he call to apologize for those deaths too???

and the Israeli police arrested the murderers.

Which is awesome. However, sadly Israeli soldiers have murdered hundreds of innocent civilians, and I would be surprised if they were arrested.

Somehow, the killers of the Israeli boys haven't yet been apprehended, as Palestinians continue to give shelter and succour to the murderers.

Maybe if Israel had not started attacking Gaza, the people of Gaza would have told the Israeli authorities who killed the boys.

Again, you seem to be confused about the timeline.

Personal jabs are not necessary, nor are they a professional way to debate.

Israel didn't attack in response to the death of the three boys, it attacked in response to Hamas commencing a rocket bombardment

Regardless of why Israel attacked, attacking does not lead to peace. It leads to more war and more bloodshed, to more hatred and to less love. :frown:

Please try to keep up

Again, personal jabs are not professional in debate.

Reply 2750

Quaintsaintrah

Original post by TheTechN1304

Palestine started the conflict? Lol. I don't support Hamas and I certainly don't care for people blaming it on Palestinians when they mean Hamas. And anyway, not that I support Hamas, but Hamas certainly did not start it this time. I don't support throwing rockets into Israel but they threw them in this time in retaliation for the killings of Palestinian teenagers that was caught on camera. It was covered in the news, but suddenly it no longer appears in the context of the current feud. Israel's always bombing in retaliation, why can't Hamas? I don't support Hamas's retaliation but I can't abide hypocrisy.

I don't buy that ****ty excuse that it's their fault either. Israel is killing them, but it's somehow their fault? Victim-blaming anyone?

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 2751

Agapelove

Original post by TheTechN1304

While Palestine indeed shares the blame, Israel did not have to react with violence. Israel could have decided to focus on defense (which the Iron Dome is awesome for) and not gone offensive.

If it had done so, hundreds of Palestinian lives would not be gone, and the possibility of peace would be so much higher.

Both Israel and Palestine would do well to learn from Martin Luther King Jr.
Martin Luther King Jr. did not retaliate with violence against the people who hated him. He said the following, which is true:

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral,
begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy.
Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it.
Through violence you may murder the liar,
but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth.
Through violence you may murder the hater,
but you do not murder hate.
In fact, violence merely increases hate.
So it goes.
Returning violence for violence multiplies violence,
adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness:
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
___________________________
Nonviolence is the answer
to the crucial political and moral questions of our time:
the need for man to overcome oppression and violence
without resorting to oppression and violence.
Man must evolve for all human conflict
a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation.
The foundation of such a method is love.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech,
Stockholm, Sweden, December 11, 1964
______________________________
Darkness cannot drive out darkness;
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate;
only love can do that.
Hate multiplies hate,
violence multiplies violence,
and toughness multiplies toughness
in a descending spiral of destruction....
The chain reaction of evil --
hate begetting hate,
wars producing more wars --
must be broken,
or we shall be plunged
into the dark abyss of annihilation.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Strength To Love, 1963

Reply 2752

filthy_pup

Original post by Quaintsaintrah

Israel but they threw them in this time in retaliation for the killings of Palestinian teenagers

Nope. Another shameful lie.

Israel attacked in response to Hamas commencing a rocket bombardment of Israel. You seem to be confused about the timeline

Hamas can't even keep a lid on rebels in their own tiny territory. How exactly do they think they will end up winning a war with Israel?

Just wave the white flags Hamas, and stop wasting everyone's time and letting your own civilians die.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28515226

Reply 2755

UniOfLife

Ah Richard Dawkins. Never missing an opportunity to call people with different beliefs from himself "mentally ill". Such a nice chap.

Besides, since he doesn't believe in the truth of any supernatural revelations he must believe that religion is man-made. And man-made for a purpose. That purpose being power and control. Hence the inescapable conclusion that people desire power and control over others. People find ways to get that power and control. Religion is one such way. Remove religion and you have not touched the underlying desire for power and control. Without religion people find other ways to get power and control. So the problem in the Middle East is superficially religion (debatable since the people in charge in Israel are definitely not religious and Zionism was not a religious cause) but is actually, like every other problem, the result of humanity.

Reply 2756

Amphiprion

Original post by UniOfLife

Dawkins tends to be a little heavy handed in his terminology but in principle I'm inclined to agree with him but also with you. Human nature is the problem, religion is the means.