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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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Original post by well in the dark


Cue responses along the lines of "minority group" and "doesn't represent Israel"....
Original post by miavdbt
We discussed the definition of a military target in a previous exchange. I would imagine the empty home fell under the definition of a military target.


Can you explain exactly how you can justify an empty home to be a "legitimate military target"? It's an empty home, for Gawd's sake. It's not doing anything. The furniture isn't attacking Israel...

The Israelis warn the Palestinians because they have to warn civilians that bombings will occur near them. I believe that this is under International Law, at least according to a UN report that was posted on here recently.


You seem like you have studied International law in depth.

In my opinion exactly 0. And that should hold true for any government that values its people's lives.


I'm glad that we agree that the HAMAS rockets are justified.

Seems a bit risky to rely on carpet bombing to destroy the tunnels. They're looking for precision. Especially when these tunnels are being used to kidnap Israeli civilians and soldiers alike.


How exactly is it "risky"?
Original post by QE2
From the Hamas Charter - Article 13...

"Peace initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement [Hamas].
There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility."

Also, from article 7
"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"

How is lasting peace possible with these attitudes?
(None of this excuses the IDF's actions, BTW)





Yes the revenge will come one day jewish made many disaster in this planet as zionism and free madonary all of them are jewish and judassim , we muslims has be descriminated and killed in our land even from iraq syria eagypt libya somallia yemen palastine its islam issue not arab issue jewish fighting with our religion ,,
Original post by tsr1269
And a ground invasion is the only way to get rid of the tunnels which go into Israel?


Well, that or the UN does it.

The majority of the tunnel length is in Gaza, so if Israelis just destroyed the bit within Israel, it would literally just take a few days/a week to dig out the final stretch again.

Also, it's probably easier to find them from the Gaza end, as the Israeli end are not open until just before an attack.
Original post by tsr1269
Cue responses along the lines of "minority group" and "doesn't represent Israel"....

Either that or they will not reply to it at all. They'd much rather leave the prominent, fascist side of Israel unacknowledged and focus their energies on concocting tales about Hamas and its terrorism.
Regardless, these people are definitely not in the minority. They are present in abundance at every level in Israeli society.
Original post by Pinzgauer
Well, that or the UN does it.

The majority of the tunnel length is in Gaza, so if Israelis just destroyed the bit within Israel, it would literally just take a few days/a week to dig out the final stretch again.

Also, it's probably easier to find them from the Gaza end, as the Israeli end are not open until just before an attack.


So because of the "difficulty" in routinely bombing the buffer zone every few days or weeks, Israel decides it is far better and much easier to bomb Gaza?
[h="1"]'If you voted for Hamas, Israel has a right to kill you'[/h]
The West: 'We want freedom for all! We want to introduce to you democracy, to civilise you barbarians!'

Or not.
Original post by tsr1269
So because of the "difficulty" in routinely bombing the buffer zone every few days or weeks, Israel decides it is far better and much easier to bomb Gaza?


Bombing a 25 mile long strip of land every few days/weeks?

Umm, no?


The onus is on the palestinians to stop digging into Israel.
Original post by tsr1269
Can you explain exactly how you can justify an empty home to be a "legitimate military target"? It's an empty home, for Gawd's sake. It's not doing anything. The furniture isn't attacking Israel...


I don't know what you're talking about exactly. Maybe you can provide a source for this 'empty home' business. I believe that upon research, which involves a source other than Al Jazeera, we will find that the 'empty home' was used to store rockets, for instance. Or it wasn't directly targeted, but was in proximity to another house which was the original target. Anything is possible.

You seem like you have studied International law in depth.

Not in depth, but more so than you have. At least judging by some of your posts.

I'm glad that we agree that the HAMAS rockets are justified.

Then again, you shouldn't bite off more than you can chew.

The HAMAS rockets are targeted at civilians and military alike. This makes them illegal under International Law.

Also, if HAMAS knows that Israel has a much more powerful military that can and will retaliate if it attacks them why they would ever try to gain anything by military means is beyond me. Perhaps you could shed some light on this since you seem to be their spokesperson.

Unless, of course, they realize that their only diplomatic leverage is to be able to point at their civilian victims and make Israel look evil.
That could be one reason.

Sad that they don't care enough for their civilians.

Allegedly, they're attempting to make an arms deal with the North Koreans now, since no sane country will ever sell terrorists missiles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/palestinianauthority/10992921/Hamas-and-North-Korea-in-secret-arms-deal.html

But wait, Gazans are living in poverty! Hamas is poor and can't afford to protect itself from the super powerful Israelis! How can they afford such expensive arms deals?

I hope HAMAS is tried for what it's doing. It shouldn't matter that it hasn't been able to do much damage. Directly targeting civilians is against International Law. Attempted murder is tried in court, this should be no different.


How exactly is it "risky"?


What if a tunnel is accidentally missed? It's an interesting solution and sounds plausible, but if they're looking for certainty maybe they're trying to be more precise with their targeting, rather than relying on carpet bombing.
Original post by Pinzgauer
Bombing a 25 mile long strip of land every few days/weeks?

Umm, no?


The onus is on the palestinians to stop digging into Israel.


Why not?

It'd save a few more Palestinians, not to mention Israeli's...
Original post by tsr1269
Why not?

It'd save a few more Palestinians, not to mention Israeli's...


So to stop the moles digging into Israel to kill civilians, You want Israel to bomb every inch of its own border for 25 miles every few days?

Are you mad, just trolling or both?
Original post by Pinzgauer
So to stop the moles digging into Israel to kill civilians, You want Israel to bomb every inch of its own border for 25 miles every few days?

Are you mad, just trolling or both?


It won't be their land so what do they have to worry about out?
IDF finally admitted that 10 of its soldiers were killed yesterday. Hamas had already confirmed this earlier. The IDF chose to release this information in bits, saying first that only 1 was killed, then 2, then 5.

Staff Sgt. Moshe Davino, 20, from Jerusalem, was killed today in combat in the southern Gaza Strip. May his memory be blessed.

In addition, four IDF soldiers were killed along the Gaza border today as a result of mortar fire. Their families have been notified.
Their names: Staff Sgt. Eliav Eliyahu Haim Kahlon, 22; Staff Sgt. Adi Briga, 23; Cpl. Meidan Maymon Biton, 20; Cpl. Niran Cohen, 20. Z"L.

Yesterday, 5 IDF soldiers were killed in combat when terrorists infiltrated Israel via a tunnel from Gaza and attempted to execute an attack
Among them: Sgt. Daniel Kedmi, 18; Sgt. Barkey Ishai Shor, 21; Sgt. Sagi Erez, 19; Sgt. Dor Dery, 18. May their memory be blessed.


Note how they're all so young. 18, 19, 20 year olds. Young, inexperienced, brainwashed from the cradle, doomed to a mere 'blessed memory' in the name of the 'Jewish' Zionist criminal oppressive nation Israel.
Original post by tsr1269
It won't be their land so what do they have to worry about out?


Seems like a waste of resources for the Israelis. Why would they be so considerate? It's not like Hamas offers them the same courtesy when they use the tunnels to kidnap Israelis.

Its much better to destroy all tunnels once, and then not worry about them for a while (or ever, if this operation succeeds).
Original post by well in the dark
IDF finally admitted that 10 of its soldiers were killed yesterday. Hamas had already confirmed this earlier. The IDF chose to release this information in bits, saying first that only 1 was killed, then 2, then 5.


Unlike the palestinians who parade body parts in front of the television - Israel does not release ANY news about deaths until all families have been notified. This is why there is always a delay in getting the confirmation from Israeli sources.




Note how they're all so young. 18, 19, 20 year olds. Young, inexperienced, brainwashed from the cradle, doomed to a mere 'blessed memory' in the name of the 'Jewish' Zionist criminal oppressive nation Israel.


How is that different to the British army? what makes them brainwashed and young Brits not brainwashed?

Very silly post.
Love how Haaretz includes 'rocket sirens' in its breaking news live updates. No mention of the F-16's and other such contraptions zoning noisily and lethally above Gazans 24/7.
Less than 4% of Israeli Jews Think the IDF Has Used Excessive Firepower in Gaza
90+% of Israeli Jews Believe Operation Protective Edge Is Just


Justness and Proportionality


•

Justness of Operation Protective Edge: Over the course of the surveys, Israeli Jewish public opinion has been consistently almost unanimous in its definition of Operation Protective Edge as justified – an average of 95% (96%, 92%, and 97% over the course of the three surveys).

•

Use of Firepower: Only 3 - 4% of Israeli Jews believed that the IDF has used excessive firepower in Gaza (3.1%, 3.8%, and 3.7%). The balance believed that the IDF used an appropriate level of firepower (48%, 37%, and 60%) or insufficient firepower (45%, 57%, and 33%).



The deluded, brainwashed, sad Israeli public thinks that the massacre in Gaza is perfectly justified. Epitome of sheeple.
“Good morning, it was a quiet night,” the Army Radio host announced cheerfully on Thursday morning.
In the day preceding the happy announcement, the Israel Defense Forces killed 80 Palestinians, 64 of whom were civilians, including 15 children and 5 women. At least 30 of them were killed during the same quiet night, from overwhelming shelling, bombing and firing from Israeli artillery, and this is without counting the number of injured or the number of houses blown up.
Dunno whether to laugh/cry.

It was one of the deadliest nights last night in Gaza. 180 people have been killed since last night. This is what the Israeli embassy in the UK had to say:
As those in the UK drift off to a peaceful sleep, rocket sirens sound in the area of the Eshkol Regional Council. #IsraelUnderFire 24/7.


Israel's war against humanity waging on ground, against common humanity and sense online.
Original post by miavdbt
I don't know what you're talking about exactly. Maybe you can provide a source for this 'empty home' business. I believe that upon research, which involves a source other than Al Jazeera, we will find that the 'empty home' was used to store rockets, for instance. Or it wasn't directly targeted, but was in proximity to another house which was the original target. Anything is possible.


Here and here.

Not in depth, but more so than you have. At least judging by some of your posts.


Then what is your reaction to this?

"Most of the recent heavy bombings in Gaza lack an acceptable military justification and, instead, appear to be designed to terrorise the civilian population ...
Contrary to Israel’s claims, mistakes resulting in civilian casualties cannot be justified: in case of doubt as to the nature of the target, the law clearly establishes that an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes (such as schools, houses, places of worship and medical facilities), are presumed as not being used for military purposes ...

It is inherently illegal under customary international law to intentionally target civilian objects, and the violation of such a fundamental tenet of law can amount to a war crime. Issuing a 'warning' – such as Israel’s so-called roof knocking technique, or sending an SMS five minutes before the attack – does not mitigate this: it remains illegal to wilfully attack a civilian home without a demonstration of military necessity as it amounts to a violation of the principle of proportionality. Moreover, not only are these 'warnings' generally ineffective, and can even result in further fatalities, they appear to be a pre-fabricated excuse by Israel to portray people who remain in their homes as 'human shields'."


Then again, you shouldn't bite off more than you can chew.

The HAMAS rockets are targeted at civilians and military alike. This makes them illegal under International Law.

Also, if HAMAS knows that Israel has a much more powerful military that can and will retaliate if it attacks them why they would ever try to gain anything by military means is beyond me. Perhaps you could shed some light on this since you seem to be their spokesperson.

Unless, of course, they realize that their only diplomatic leverage is to be able to point at their civilian victims and make Israel look evil.
That could be one reason.

Sad that they don't care enough for their civilians.

Allegedly, they're attempting to make an arms deal with the North Koreans now, since no sane country will ever sell terrorists missiles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...arms-deal.html

But wait, Gazans are living in poverty! Hamas is poor and can't afford to protect itself from the super powerful Israelis! How can they afford such expensive arms deals?

I hope HAMAS is tried for what it's doing. It shouldn't matter that it hasn't been able to do much damage. Directly targeting civilians is against International Law. Attempted murder is tried in court, this should be no different.


Wow! You had to write all this just to justify the fact that HAMAS is exactly like Israel. Excuse me a moment whilst I dismiss your hyperbole.

....

There. It's dismissed.

As it stands, you believe that HAMAS are justified in their rocket attacks against Israel.

What if a tunnel is accidentally missed? It's an interesting solution and sounds plausible, but if they're looking for certainty maybe they're trying to be more precise with their targeting, rather than relying on carpet bombing.


a) How can you "miss a tunnel" if you carpet bomb the entire area?

b) You mean carpet bombing an area where there are no civilians as opposed to Gaza would result in more casualties?

To echo Sen. Kerry's words: "It's a hell of a pinpoint operation"...

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