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yea i can tell you're african. cause only an african would say this^
caribbeans do have a lot in common with africa. but also a lot of difference.
culturally jamaicans are most similar to ghanians. considering even africans can clash due to cultural differences i find it a bit weird that you're going as far as to say you're "the same" i'm guessing meaning both black?



so where in africa are you from? nigerian and ghanaian make up the majority of african immigrants to this country. and in case you havent noticed. the post was generally speaking. like a round up of the typical. i would of thought was obvious. if you're entire argument is that theres a minority of exceptions than my point still stands. jollof rice is overrated. boring version of paella.

hang on you think my argument that africans hate caribbeans because african food is so bad? go back and read it again. my point was caribbeans are more culturally popular to westerners. that includes their food being more popular. clearly their food is more popular to even you. the issue is THE CULTURE (that includes food). is more popular. its cooler. it was quite common back in the day for africans at school to lie and say they were jamaican. but they all deny that now. bunch of liars lol. at least some admit it happened but say they never did it themselves personally. which i respect. i respect being real. not this twisting truth and fact to turn the world into the perspective you wish it to be.



here we go with the exceptions again. you do know the history of wind rush and the caribbean community coming over here to work as working class people? yes some have risen to middleclass but they are rare in comparison to the rest of the jamaican community.
also even if you're living a working class life here in the uk does not mean you're working class. i hear many stories from africans boasting about how rich they were in africa before they came here. where are you from? how are you working class?

afrobeats is dominating because africans are running the events for africans. i've been to them. their not great. no one lets go its too up tight.

caribbean raves everyone goes to. also believe it or not there was more than just vybz kartel making music. but afro beats largely sounds all the same it all sounds like azonto and its not "ravey enough" its very light hoppy music to bubble to. like kuduro isnt really popular over here and thats angolan. but thats rave music you can go nuts too.

i went to party not long ago we had to ask the dj to put on some bashment because the afro beats was driving us nuts. 3 hours of afro beats. and the majority african audience was happy with it. but then when bashment came on everyone started having actual fun and letting loose.

more united then i think? you realise before i posted my response there had been a whole bunch of people talking about this issue before u? saying how there was a lot of rivalry. i even no mixed caribbean and african heritage people who will confirm that. if you think there isnt rivalry and division then you're living in the clouds. this threads responses from others alone are evidence of that.

but yea once again my point was on caribbean culture being more popular in the west than african.

you will find afrobeats played at black clubs.

you won't find it played at racially mixed 50% white clubs.

but you will find bashment.



and there we go. even yourself someone who thinks you are the same and have no rivalry have just admitted rivalry.

yea in an ideal world africans and caribbeans would unite. but i think theres too much damage done. there are historic issues there. caribbeans can resent africans still having links to africa. or the fact that africans sold slaves to the whites. africans are not so willing to except jamaicans into their community. i've heard africans cuss about jamaicans being good for nothing a lot. the fact you are not aware of this makes me just think you live in a bubble. like if you were admitting it happens but "not all the time" i'd respect the point more. but you're not so i just don't believe u. yea but the acs at my uni was basically the african society. jamaicans made up like 1/3 of the audience and trickled out after the 1st year.

This.
My experiences support near enough everything you've just said.
I generally don't get what what there is to be jealous of really. I'm proud of the fact that my Grandmother came here to England and had 3 jobs at the same time to support my aunts, mother and uncles. But when i talk to my Nigerian friends, it kind of seems like none of their Grandparents have worked as hard to get where they are. I hardly hear of it. My family may be working class here in ENgland, but in Jamaica, I'm actually upperclass, but we don't brag about it.
In my general expirience, the snobbishness passes down through generations. My other working class friends find it awkward to go around thier houses and often they insult the area I live in. Plus, I hear horrible things like 'You don't know who your father is', when I do. I'm part cuban(latin) and Taino Jamaican, to whom family is everything. Absolutely everything. It's not only in Jamica, but the whole Carribbean, because when push comes to shove, Us Carribbeans can all unite.
And the hair thing. I just don't get it. Alot of Jamicans and I gues Carribeans, keep their natural hair. If you see a person with a weave or relaxed hair, they're usually over 16/18 as we think that relaxers etc, are just not suitable for childeren. I for one have never had extentions, weave, relaxer or anything like that in my hair. Ever. (I've dyed it burgundy though, I got bored). I love my hair. I just don't leave my hair out much because it's really light and so a little bit of wind moves it easily and I hate hair going into my face and having to fix it every few seconds. Especially when curly hair tangles easily.

What ethnicity are you btw?

yea exactly, the reason you don't brag about it is because its a different culture.
oppressed peoples have a "david and goliath" mind set. where we are proud to have had the hard times and that we are now fighting against the odds to victory. so when you meet other poor people you understand that sometimes there's a reason people are poor and that it's not just because they're lazy or stupid. a lot of nigerians especially the recent wave of nigerians are from wealthy families in nigeria. africa can have some really troubling ideas of class. for example i've seen pictures where chiefs and kings or general tribal leaders have used other people as chairs to sit on. or have little serving minion types who cannot raise their head above their knees and stuff. there's a kinda "haha you're poor" mentality there.
and it's annoying that some lost their riches and come over to the uk as refugees n then try and claim snob status from their rich back ground AND claim david v goliath hardship stories too.

yea africans will insult the area. for them its a place they arrived in and want to get out of as soon as. whereas a lot of jamaicans and caribbeans had to really work and quite literally FIGHT the police and gangs of skinheads to stay where they are. so theres a sense of community history to the areas.

yea i've heard the "you don't know you're dad" or "you got sold for a bag of salt" stuff before.

a lot of the family issues in the jamaican community i think is there's a lot of damage still done from slavery that effects the family dynamics.

but more importantly most of the caribbean immigrants to the uk came over SINGLE. whereas many africans have brought their whole family over.

in fact even jamaicans who had families would still come over single as they could only afford their own trip. then they would earn their money in the uk and pay for their family to come later.

wow taino and cuban? thats very rare. never heard it called taino i usually hear arawak. arawaks are taino though right?

sadly most of the city jamaicans don't keep natural. or a lot of the recent jamaican immigrants to the uk don't keep natural. which is a shame.

but yea im fully gassed about natural hair. especially how rare it is nowadays. i probably read far too much into it. but i've known too many girls who literally have never been taught how to look after their natural hair by their mothers. n i have known girls who go natural and dispell all the myths about it being easier and stuff. but when i see a girl with natural hair think either she knows how to look after it or even if she doesnt shes willing to put in the work to find out and make it work. i think theres a level of pride, confidence and dedication with natural hair thats very attractive. but at the same time i'm a fan of creativity decoration and stylish flare. but i think theres quite a difference in trying to make it look like you're natural hair is straight hair. and then customising you're hair by putting colours in or what not.

I'm white (irish) btw.

Err no it isn't

You're white? This is me thinking you were actually Caribbean? Where have you got all this info from then?

Um natural hair is rare for black girls.

and what does Ebuwa mean like..what country is that?

sadly i grew up in a caribbean community.

i say sadly because its made me pretty ill equipped to blend in with whites for cultural references with slang speech and customs.
then on the flip side i am aware that as a white person i can never fully integrate with the community i grew up around because whether i like to admit it or not others will see that race as a barrier.

anyway's I've been able to see a lot of this from my personal experience. i guess being an outsider allows a certain out the box view. but if you look in the thread you will see jamaicans and africans confirming a lot of the points i've made.

i noticed earlier on in school like primary in the early 90s africans blended much better. but the more recent immigrants during around 2000 had a harder time.

i did see bullying of africans going on and did see africans saying they were jamaican to fit in. or saying stuff like they were american or south american to disguise their accent.

i have no reason to make the stuff up. im not taking sides. although im sure someones gonna leap in the the "white man is playing divide and rule!" at some point.

i wouldn't really class my observational posts on a forum as something of a significant cointelpro-esque propaganda campaign against black solidarity even if i was retarded enough to have such malicious intent.

i digress

it is something that is quite solid in my memory cause i remember my first kiss was with a zimbabwean girl. but i only found out she was zimbabwean 5 years later when i was 16. the entire time prior she told me she was jamaican.

a close friend of mine was ugandan and during years 7 through to 9 insisted he was jamaican.

i have more examples but i won't go on.

i agree with you that africans and jamaicans do blend certainly more so than they do with people of different skin tone.

but while there are similarities there are also differences.

i have seen arguments kick off when africans are constantly saying jamaica didn't invent this or that and that it was really started in africa. where jamaicans have got kinda pissed because they felt africans were trying hitch a ride and take credit for jamaican achievements. i have also been at parties where the jamaicans had bashment playing then the afrobeats came on and all the jamaican men left with the women following soon behind.

also privately when separated i've had awkward situations where say i've been sat with jamaicans and they've been taking the piss out africans and i've defended africans but then i was kinda surprised at a load of heat about africans selling out black people to slave owners or what would they know they are neeks or complaints about how their men are very pervy and won't give up. i'd respond saying yardies are pretty sexually aggressive too and then they'd counter respond yada yada.

then on the flip side africans would annoyed at my affection for jamaican culture and think i was dumb for liking jamaicans and that they are bad people and would tell me stories about how the jamaicans would try to bully them while growing up or how they are stupid and lazy with how they've been in the country since wind rush and africans come over just recently and already have set up shops and businesses.

but i remember once i was on the phone to a friend of mine (jamaican) who was in the library at uni and she was printing some work off. a guy came up to her and asked if she was done, she said no and his response was "typical ****ing jamaican" and walked off. i was quite surprised when she told me he was black. she ended up knowing people who new him and he was from Sierra Leone originally.

but yea I think class does have a big deal. i'd be interested to know what your definition of working class or middleclass is.

but even class aside jamaicans are worse off than africans.
jamaicans came over long ago as hard labour.
MANY africans come over here educated or to be educated.
at uni i've made a lot more african friends as there's just simply not that many jamaicans.

jamaicans also have come from more fragmented house holds typically.
slavery was not that long ago. and im sure you can imagine the effect it has had on the family unit of post slavery families in the "new world". being forced to breed with people and then having you're children sold to another plantation a long with systematic violence will have an effect. and will follow a family for generations.

for example in ireland a lot of people claim that their family was involved in the uprising against the english when we fought to get our independence.

however many are lieing or their links are tenuous. most of my family actually did. as a result there's still a lot of problems echoing throughout the generations today.

so keep in mind many jamaicans brought the emotional baggage of the broken family units with them to the uk.

not only that but they came and were usually single without the support of family.

in a country where there was very serious racial violence agains them and where shops had signs saying "no blacks no dogs no irish" in the windows.

so you combine the history of past traumas with no support network in a foreign country where you're discriminated against and at risk of violence because of you're race.

things are not going to be too good.

so a lot of relationship attempts broke down and a lot of single mothers in this environment had more kids. they didnt always have the best education and often came over for education such as nursing. but a nurses wage was just about enough to support a single parent house hold as the benefits system was not in full swing yet and especially not so for immigrants. these issues persisted up until the 80s and echoes of it still exist to some extent but i think kids in our generation are largely clueless to it.

a lot of young men a long the way have gone to prison because of a lack of jobs to live off and a need for vigilante style violence to protect themselves from the skinhead gangs and police.

so this is very different to the african immigrants that came over as whole families from backgrounds that were not always as negatively effected. by political war (like the jlp vs pnp) or quite possibly even slavery. of course there was slavery in africa and colonialism but it was different to the slavery and colonialism of the new world. also countries like ghana for example were not even colonised for that long less than 200 years in fact.

yes people such as nigerians came over as refugees from the Biafra conflict so yea that could be comparable but you do notice the difference between those refugees and the ones that came over during the era of the "nigerian fraudster".

so yea is this all making sense so far. i hope so im just going off without reading back so forgive me.

yea so given the history of jamaicans over here, the racism, the fragmented family units, the habit of crime existing from harder times, the lack of prioritising of education. now compare that to educated whole solid family units immigrating from africa sometimes with a good wad of cash too.

but yea i defiantly think africans from malawi, south africa, angola, or zimbabwe are much more easy going.

although i've found zimbabweans a bit hit and miss. i've noticed a lot of zimbabwean immigrants to the uk were rich and then mugabe started going all "socialist" so they left with their money to south africa or the uk or wherever. i've noticed i don't get on with them tool well their abit... sell-out-ish. but i've noticed the more working class immigrants are much more pro mugabe. and they are usually really cool and laid back lol.

^^^



And how do you know it's Edo Nigerian? Not being combative just wondering how you know/care bout all this stuff.

i was on this forum before i started uni. i pretty much abandoned it coming to the site for 2 years. prior to my hiatus is was quite busy in the black girl appreciation thread arguing with everyone about the fetishisation portrayal of black women. i got a bit sick of the Caucasian gawk fest of tits and ass and its was becoming increasingly tasteful and also bias towards light skin straight hair mixed race "acceptable-black" types. anyway we agreed on a lot of stuff and spoke about it in pm when the admins came in and whitewashed everything. she was pretty much the last person i spoke to in pm before i dropped off this site and focused on uni.

also knowing about all the stuff you quoted me on. thats just my life experience plus i'm naturally very inquisitive and observant.

I see. But I'm still confused on whether you're showing concern or scrutiny for black people...

i guess its something that interests me.
race has been a big part of my life.
racial mixing has been quite highlighted by significant events in my life.
i care a lot about my own people.
i think theres lessons to be learnt from others.
i know black and irish people have often studied each other due to being in the same boat.
marcus garvey was very interested in the irish and their fight against the british and he reportedly put the green in his red green and black flag as a sign of some sort of solidarity with them.
fredrick douglas even went to ireland and was friends with daniel o'connell.

the black civil rights movement inspired the irish to march for their civil rights too.

irish people have a lot of shared history with black people.

i consider them comrades for the most part.

i guess some people find the way i talk to be a bit sharp or even offensive sometimes.

i don't blame them. i mean i grew up around jamaicans and they're not known for mincing their words and dancing around the issue. they're very honest and to the point and real. something the british often take as being ill mannered. but i personally see all that etiquette and being all slickly worded like a politician to be quite fake and sly. i'd rather crudely rush to the heart of an issue at the risk of offence than try and seduce my way into it with fancy word play.

i guess its something that interests me.
race has been a big part of my life.
racial mixing has been quite highlighted by significant events in my life.
i care a lot about my own people.
i think theres lessons to be learnt from others.
i know black and irish people have often studied each other due to being in the same boat.
marcus garvey was very interested in the irish and their fight against the british and he reportedly put the green in his red green and black flag as a sign of some sort of solidarity with them.
fredrick douglas even went to ireland and was friends with daniel o'connell.

the black civil rights movement inspired the irish to march for their civil rights too.

irish people have a lot of shared history with black people.

i consider them comrades for the most part.

i guess some people find the way i talk to be a bit sharp or even offensive sometimes.

i don't blame them. i mean i grew up around jamaicans and they're not known for mincing their words and dancing around the issue. they're very honest and to the point and real. something the british often take as being ill mannered. but i personally see all that etiquette and being all slickly worded like a politician to be quite fake and sly. i'd rather crudely rush to the heart of an issue at the risk of offence than try and seduce my way into it with fancy word play.

Cool. I get it for Irish in Ireland and Irish in Britain, a somewhat similar boat for blacks but never the slave boat At least I don't think so lol though I know Irish were exiled to Caribbean Islands Still racist Irish especially here in US like they're the worst and they're always the cops here ugh. Irish in UK and Ireland are sooo much better like consciously so and culturally so than ****ing Irish US hate them. There's no normal irish here they're either gum chewing cops or rifle toting hillbillies We call the police baton the Billy club because Billy is a thing for Irish and then police brutality The Irish got off the hook from discrimination when the Mexicans came & hate for Asians and Germans here during WWII and got too ****ing big for their britches. As politics and demograhpics for UK and US are quite different, the attitudes of and between blacks and Irish and Asians are farrr different.

I constantly re-edited the post after posting so please before responding reload and read then say anything if you so feel the need

ah well the irish have been under the heel of the british empire almost twice as long as black people.
800 years. of war, massacres, genocides, destruction of language, culture, religion and slavery ranging from full on slavery to indentured servitude.

yea a lot of irish were sent as slaves to the caribbean. irish men were not very valuable as the men often had to work in the field and they often died from the sun. irish were 10 times cheaper than african slaves. so some times irish men were bought as a punish example. where they'd tie them upside down and burn them as an example to all the slaves of what can happen to them. but more commonly irish women were bought. you could by 10 irish women for the price of one african women. so often slave owners would by 1 black man and 10 irish women. then breed the one black man with the 10 irish women thus producing 10 more babie slaves for the price of 1. this practice was even copied by french slave traders. evidence of the irish in haiti manifests itself in haitian voodoo with Maman Brigitte.

but yea irish americans are pretty much alien to me. i have a bunch of books about the irish in america that i need to read but i just haven't had time. but i am slightly fascinated at the hypocrisy of being oppressed by the british only to be racist towards black people in america.

but it seems to not be that straight forward. irish do seem to have been discriminated against. and at various stages were quite conscious. there was a few occasions where black and irish realised they were both being screwed over and united rather than fighting each other for scraps. it seemed to be something that really terrified the government. so they put a lot of effort in to dividing irish and blacks. for example the democrats (who back then were the racist bad guys) offered irish immigrants american citizenship if they voted democrats, while the republicans (back then the good guys) were more enticing to blacks.

although the irish in brooklyn, bronx and chicago seemed to mix with blacks a lot more.

but yea daniel o'connell once wrote about it. saying that the day an irish man chooses to discriminate another in the way he has been subjected to is the day he is no longer irish.

but irish americans often don't know the first thing about irish people.
also they get confused between the scots irish and the irish irish.
the scots irish were not native irish people. they were plants in ireland.
basically the english had this great idea that they would send scottish people to ireland to own the irish and rule over them. they were very violent and brutal. they were protestant and were big fans of a protestant crusader called william of orange. the protestants ever since have adopted the colour orange to represent them. and also refer to them selves as billy boys (billy being short for william). anyway many of these *******s left ireland for america to go and inflict their brutality over there.

thats where most of the hill billies come from. it was the scots who started the KKK and brought the practice of burning crosses. it was the scots that largely were hillbillies.

i think the billy club thing you mentioned is from the whole william thing.

but yes a lot of irish did join the police especially in new york. in fact it was more common for irish to be criminals though. just the irish who joined the police lasted longer cause they didnt get murdered or go to prison or on the run.

but yea the "irish american" anomaly is something i want to read up on more cause it perplexes me.

but i've noticed america seems to wheel out guys like bill o'reily and sean hannity to kinda counter black people. i think the reason they select irish americans is so they can fall back on the "hey but im irish i had it tough too" kinda bull****. but i won't have it their all sell outs.

you may have heard black people call other black people bounty or coconut (black on the outside white on the inside) basically to indicate them being a sellout.

the irish have a term for irish people that have sold out. we call them shoneens. its quite old school though. only the OAP's'll really kno that one lol.

but really i see very little irish in "irish americans" apart from the ones that are still poor. like the ones in south side chicago or in the the bronx, brooklyn n queens. n boston too. you do get some cool "house of pain" types.

but yea most "irish" americans are an embarrassment to irish people because they don't know the first thing about anything lol.

but yea the irish in the uk and ireland pretty much immediately sided with black people. yea there might have been a bit of tension now n again but nothing big.

in fact in london theres an area called kilburn which is basically full of irish and jamaican heritage people. manchester, birmingham and leeds are similar too.

The 1st part about Irish being under slavery longer: Um they are on the same land so of course, their earlier contact would make their tension longer. Also Africa was a functioning kingdom and society so it had to be broken from within longer. The part about price of being sold: nothing good about being sold. As far as the women trade, I can't confirm that to believe that but I will say someone might want more white woman than an African; you know slaves were raped and bred and stuff. Also, I would assume the higher the bid the harsher the work and slavery because "I paid this much for you, you better work!" kinda thing. Enough about that.

I know about the Democrat/Repub thing.

No they did not mix more; the same places you mentioned are the most segregated. The more physical integration, the higher the racial tension and socioeconomic discrimination. They hate each other in American cities. The urbanization in the 50's (zoning and building highways through cities and creation of suburbia) was the largest blow to integration because the whites (old Irish and Germans) "stuck" in the cities who hated the Latins and blacks and Jews wanted to run out. Alas, gentrification.

I've heard of Kilburn what is that west London? Leeds heard of Midlands and Birmingham heard of, I know Irish and nonwhites mix, I do know that as far as UK but US forget it.

NINA was No Irish Need Apply. But that part of American history is sooo archaic and long forgotten as I said, when integration/immigration of Hispanics, Jews and blacks and other Europeans happened due to civil rights or relaxed views on racism in certain regions (northeast). Those groups moved to cities and lost land and the Irish moved to suburbs and gained land and ran the law enforcement which is for some reason despite all the infamy and controversy "honorable" to be .

AH yea that's about it for me