The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

Original post by miavdbt

Something about Hitler.

Hitler was in control of the German army.

The political direction of Izzadin Qassam and HAMAS may be similar but they are considered somewhat independent.

As such, there is not sufficient control over the "armed brigades of HAMAS".

Ergo, one cannot hold HAMAS responsible for the actions of the Palestinians...

Reply 3142

Original post by tsr1269

Hitler was in control of the German army.

The political direction of Izzadin Qassam and HAMAS may be similar but they are considered somewhat independent.

As such, there is not sufficient control over the "armed brigades of HAMAS".

Ergo, one cannot hold HAMAS responsible for the actions of the Palestinians...

What does 'somewhat independent' mean? Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. It is responsible of keeping its citizens in check. It is responsible for keeping its military jihadists in line.

It can execute 'alleged' spies, but all it does is grant martyrdom to those who terrorize Israel. There is no accountability for what those jihadists do. Of course, Israel will defend itself against a government who does nothing to keep its extremists in check except glorify them. Any sane state would.

This is a genuine question: Do you actually support the actions of Hamas and do you believe that they're a good option for the people of Gaza?

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 3143

Original post by miavdbt

This is a genuine question: Do you actually support the actions of Hamas and do you believe that they're a good option for the people of Gaza?

Genuine question: Do you actually believe the murder of hundreds of innocent civilians is a proportionate response to the actions of Hamas?

Reply 3144

Original post by n00

Genuine question: Do you actually believe the murder of hundreds of innocent civilians is a proportionate response to the actions of Hamas?

Those innocent civilians are not directly targeted, military targets happen to be near them for some reason. Like when that UN school had rockets in it. Strange place to put your rockets.

I blame Hamas for each and every death in Gaza.

Reply 3145

Jammy Duel

21

Original post by Pinzgauer

I posted above saying that Israel rejected one proposal which was penned by Hamas/ISIS-sponsoring Qatar (whose beheaders are currently rampaging across Iraq) - and Turkey, lead by an arrogant, mouthy, Hamas-supporting Islamist extremist who also supported the slaughter in Syria.

The truce proposal (according to Israeli media) barely even mentioned Israel or its security.

Naturally a ceasefire proposal by terrorists for terrorists was rejeced.

Israel has accepted all humanitarian ceasefires though.

The media seems to think otherwise, and you can't trust a word coming out of the Israeli government, numerous times their spokesmen have said that what the UN and people in Gaza (both Palestinian and international) have said is a lie, even where there are videos to back up the position.
They say that most people they kill are militants, nobody else seems to hold that view. They claim to have broken no ceasefires, nobody else seems to agree.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 3146

Original post by miavdbt

I blame Hamas for each and every death in Gaza.

But it's Israel that are doing the actual murdering and fortunately it seems the rest of the world won't be buying that bull**** for much longer.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/gaza-crisis-israel-undermining-support-west-philip-hammond

Reply 3147

Original post by miavdbt

What does 'somewhat independent' mean? Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. It is responsible of keeping its citizens in check. It is responsible for keeping its military jihadists in line.

It can execute 'alleged' spies, but all it does is grant martyrdom to those who terrorize Israel. There is no accountability for what those jihadists do. Of course, Israel will defend itself against a government who does nothing to keep its extremists in check except glorify them. Any sane state would.

This is a genuine question: Do you actually support the actions of Hamas and do you believe that they're a good option for the people of Gaza?

HAMAS, according to the Israel's, is not a legitimate government therefore it is not the ruling party and therefore it has no authority to keep those under their rule, as you say, "in check".

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that you don't recognise HAMAS as the government and then say that they should control the Palestinians.

You either recognize HAMAS as the ruler of the Gaza strip and hold them accountable or you accept the rocket attacks are inevitable and you can't do anything about it.

Which one is it?

Reply 3148

Pinzgauer

Original post by n00

Genuine question: Do you actually believe the murder of hundreds of innocent civilians is a proportionate response to the actions of Hamas?

The actions of Hamas are intended to cause as many casualties as possible for Israelis (also for palestinians)

The fact that Israel can defend themselves does not negate the fact that the intent is for mass murder and of course ultimately, genocide (according to their charter)

So just like any other nation under such a bombardment, Israel is within its right to retaliate with force.

It's also worth remembering that the people voted for Hamas knowing full well that it meant war.

The people got what they voted for.

Reply 3149

Chlorophile

20

People need to stop thinking about politics and start remembering that they're human beings. I don't understand how any human being, regardless of what side they're on, can in any way condone or excuse the violence that is happening at the moment.

Reply 3150

Original post by Pinzgauer

So just like any other nation under such a bombardment, Israel is within its right to retaliate with force.

No. Israels response must be proportionate. In no way can the current death toll be considered proportionate.

Reply 3151

Original post by tsr1269

HAMAS, according to the Israel's, is not a legitimate government therefore it is not the ruling party and therefore it has no authority to keep those under their rule, as you say, "in check".

You can't have it both ways. You can't say that you don't recognise HAMAS as the government and then say that they should control the Palestinians.

You either recognize HAMAS as the ruler of the Gaza strip and hold them accountable or you accept the rocket attacks are inevitable and you can't do anything about it.

Which one is it?

You didn't answer my question.

That's the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard (the one bolded in red). Clearly, Israel can do something about it and is doing something about it. Even if Israel doesn't recognize that Hamas is a legitimate government, it doesn't mean it denies the simple fact that Hamas is currently the ruling force in Gaza. Hamas rules Gaza, and Israel's 2012 ceasefire with Hamas shows that it recognizes this fact, even if diplomatically it doesn't recognize Hamas as an official government.

If some random jihadists started firing rockets into your backyard, would you accept that?

Reply 3152

[h="1"]Israeli Intelligence Officers Doubt Hamas Involvement In Incident That Sparked Gaza War[/h]
Does Pinzer or Miavdbt or any resident Zionist or IDF propagandist want to comment?

Reply 3153

Original post by n00

But it's Israel that are doing the actual murdering and fortunately it seems the rest of the world won't be buying that bull**** for much longer.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/30/gaza-crisis-israel-undermining-support-west-philip-hammond

Sure, Israel are the ones firing the rockets into Gaza. Hamas are the ones firing the rockets into Israel.

Israel destroys its targets. Hamas... just fires off into space hoping to kill Israelis and fails. But really, Israel's only intention is to destroy military targets, whilst Hamas just wants to destroy as many Israelis as possible before destroying Israel.

Reply 3154

Pinzgauer

Original post by n00

No. Israels response must be proportionate. In no way can the current death toll be considered proportionate.

Nonsense. This conversation has been played out before.

453 British soldiers have died in Afghanistan. How many Afghans do you think they've killed?

I would suggest it's a fair bit more than 453 - including many civilians.

The "proportionality" issue is a red herring by anti-Israel bigots as a way to try and stop Israel defending itself and scoring victories. It's an attempt at a leash which ultimately perpetuates the conflict.

Reply 3155

Original post by Chlorophile

People need to stop thinking about politics and start remembering that they're human beings.

It's ****ing depressing isn't it, i just can't begin to comprehend how anyone can try to defend all those deaths.

Reply 3156

castlemadeofsand

1

Original post by Pinzgauer

Ah, ok.

We'll just forget about the war waged on Israel that lead to the territories being so-called 'occupied'

Yeah, sure. What planet are you on :biggrin:

Well no actually, Gaza and the West Bank was occupied by Israel in the aftermath of the 6 day war which was triggered by a surprise attack by the Israeli's on the Egyptian air force in an attempt to wrangle some control influence over the Suez Canal.

You see, Egypt blocked the Suez Canal in order to weaken the Israeli economy. Israel's actions in using military force to reverse this 'blockade' were lauded as necessary by many past and contemporary commentators. Its somewhat ironic then that Israel would then subject a territory to the same tactics that were employed against them. Im sure if Gaza had the means to launch an attack on Israel to weaken the economic strangle hold enforced upon it, the world's media would not look at it with as positive attitude as it did with Israel's actions 40 years ago.

Reply 3157

Original post by miavdbt

You didn't answer my question.

You're lucky if I even read and respond to even 1/10th of your posts, such is the amount of crap which I have to sift through.

That's the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard (the one bolded in red). Clearly, Israel can do something about it and is doing something about it. Even if Israel doesn't recognize that Hamas is a legitimate government, it doesn't mean it denies the simple fact that Hamas is currently the ruling force in Gaza. Hamas rules Gaza, and Israel's 2012 ceasefire with Hamas shows that it recognizes this fact, even if diplomatically it doesn't recognize Hamas as an official government.

As I have reiterated on numerous occasions, you cannot not recognise HAMAS but hold them responsible.

It simply defies logic. Something I've noticed that many pro-Israeli supporters lack...

If some random jihadists started firing rockets into your backyard, would you accept that?

I suggest you open your eyes and read carefully because I will say this once and only once.

Let me unequivocally state the following:

If I had illegally immigrated and brought over my whole extended family and in the process, marginalised, displaced and committed atrocities against the indigenous people and demanded my own state, thus abusing their hospitality, I wouldn't just think that the rockets are justified, I would actually expect them to retaliate in some way, manner or form.

Reply 3158

Jammy Duel

21

Original post by Pinzgauer

Nonsense. This conversation has been played out before.

453 British soldiers have died in Afghanistan. How many Afghans do you think they've killed?

I would suggest it's a fair bit more than 453 - including many civilians.

The "proportionality" issue is a red herring by anti-Israel bigots as a way to try and stop Israel defending itself and scoring victories. It's an attempt at a leash which ultimately perpetuates the conflict.

Since you want to come back to this Tu Quoque argument, yet again, you shall be presented with the figures, yet again.
3,444 Coalition soldiers killed
1,143 contractors killed
189 Aircraft lost
<10,086 Afghan Security forces killed
200 Afghan Norther Alliance men killed
A total of at least 14,859 men killed.

Insurgency casualties, between 20,000 and 35,000.
Civilians killed by both sides: 16,725-19,013, most of which are by the insurgents.
that's an overall CCR of 25-35%, for just the Coalition and Allies it is much much lower.
Compare that to the current conflict in Gaza where the most conservative estimates are about 50% and the much more frequently quoted figures are 75%+, where's your argument now?

Reply 3159