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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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I think you are overstating the danger faced by Israelis.

3 wars waged by their neighbours, 2 intifadas possibly a third and continual wars of attrition every single day of Israel's existence

In 2002, an Israeli was statistically more likely to die from a terrorist attack, than in a road accident.

I've known of a few people who've been there (recently) and they said most of Israel barely notice a war is even going on. The majority of Hamas rockets are like "fireworks".

Damage

That doesn't mean that what Hamas doing is any less wrong but the actual effect on daily life is minimal at best compared to what Israel is doing to Gaza.

In general, when there is no active conflict like we see just now (and the media doesn't bother to report) it's Israeli lives that are more disrupted than Gaza. Kids can go to school in Gaza freely.

When rockets are being fired into Israel, schools close.

edit: Additionally, it was never proved that those 3 abducted boys were actually abducted by Hamas.

Israel knows who the perpetrators are. They are currently being hidden by palestinians.

Reply 3641

well in the dark

Original post by DiddyDec

Why are there little to no bomb shelters in Gaza?

It seems very strange to me that Hamas have not built any shelters for their people. They know full well that Israel will return fire yet they don't protect themselves as best they can. Even a makeshift bomb shelter is better than nothing and it might actually reduce civilian casualties.

It can't be that they don't have building supplies, they have an entire city around them. They also have the work force, I'm sure the Palestinian people would want something to protect them other than firing rockets aimlessly.

Do Hamas actually care about the people in Gaza?

Maybe it's time all of you stop pretending that Hamas is an actual government whenever it suits you and only a 'terrorist organisation' when that suits you.

'It can't be that they don't have building supplies' - do you know that nothing goes into Gaza without Israel's permission? Israel does not respect the UN's shelters, do you think it'll allow Hamas to built shelters, let alone refrain from striking them, when they have a million excuses ready?

'I'm sure the Palestinian people would want something to protect them other than firing rockets aimlessly' - oh, so suddenly all the Palestinian people do is fire rockets aimlessly? Or just all the Gazans? Or just Hamas? Do you even know what you're talking about?

Do you know how Israel builds its defence systems? And Israel an actual, legitimate country today, with its own economy? It requires funds from abroad.

But Hamas, though demonised, though apparently bankrupt, should be blamed for deaths of Palestinians, because they failed to set up bomb shelters which Israel, knowing from Israel's experience with bomb shelters sheltering Palestinians, would not even respect.

Reply 3642

Pinzgauer

Original post by Syrian Guy

Chris Gunness, UNRWA spokesman, breaks down in interview with Al Jazeera.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm4WT3z1K9c

Well, at least he had some tears... which most of the rulers of the nations as well as some TSR members didn't have- no disrespect!

Theatre.

UNRWA is an anti-Israel branch of the UN whose schools teach children that Israel shouldn't' exist.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=521_1406803654

Reply 3643

tsr1269

Original post by Pinzgauer

Theatre.

UNRWA is an anti-Israel branch of the UN whose schools teach children that Israel shouldn't' exist.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=521_1406803654

Sounds like you are formulating your own conspiracy theory....

Reply 3644

Horsedobbin

Original post by DiddyDec

In the blitz in london people could use the tube stations as shelters, so if there is no tube in Gaza because it's cheaper to travel by road, then they could dig out some shelters for local people to go in when necessary. I know a lot of houses have been knocked down in bombings which is sad but in rebuilding they could build houses with strong cellars , like coal cellars for hiding from bombs.

Reply 3645

Ganhad

to all the pro israelis answer me this why is israel not using its ground forces to attack mortar positions rather than just bombing the place your far less likely to kill innocent people when you use ground forces .

Reply 3646

Pinzgauer

Original post by tsr1269

Sounds like you are formulating your own conspiracy theory....

Or you could click the link and see for yourself.

Reply 3647

tsr1269

Original post by Pinzgauer

Or you could click the link and see for yourself.

Is there something inherently wrong in telling someone else that another state shouldn't exist?

Reply 3648

DiddyDec01

Original post by well in the dark

Apparently Hamas were voted for democratically. So somebody must have wanted them in power. They are still a terrorist organisation they just got voted to power.

How is it that Hamas have built underground bunkers for themselves if they can't get building supplies?

I am completely against the violence against the innocent civilians. You should remember that schools and hospitals were not built to with stand bombings and missile attacks. At least with a shelter the odds of survival would improve.

Hamas are the ones firing the rockets we all know that. They are firing the rockets to supposedly protect the people of Gaza. This is the only protecting they have, which quite clearly doesn't work. That is why they need non-combat ways of protecting themselves. There are many residents that don't want Hamas to continue with their ridiculous action, but they have nowhere to hide.

I am not blaming the deaths of Gaza on Hamas, however I am saying they could do so much more to at least look they give a **** about the people's lives they are putting at risk by continuing the is ridiculous war. They don't care about the people at all. Hamas has built its central command bunker under a hospital for **** sake. That is the definition of using a human shield.

Reply 3649

Pinzgauer

Original post by tsr1269

Is there something inherently wrong in telling someone else that another state shouldn't exist?

You don't find anything wrong with UN-run schools teaching kids that their neighbours shouldn't exist? :eek:

Wow. I think we're finally seeing you for what you are.

Reply 3650

broscience123

IDF Sniper Boasts Murdering 13 Children On Instagram

http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/07/idf-sniper-admits-on-instagram-to-murdering-13-gaza-children/

Disgusting.

Is anyone actually surprised? We've seen hundreds of posts on Facebook of Israelis celebrating the death of children (some so disturbing, such as the one claiming that the bombing of children gives them orgasms). And with service being mandatory in the IDF, it was only a matter of time before these trigger-happy kids were able to implement their abhorrent views in real-life.

[To Mods: Please do not merge this topic into the main sticky. This topic is not about the overall Israel-Palestine conflict. This topic is specifically about the mentality and disturbing views of people who serve in the IDF]

Edit: Seems the hasbara guys think this is fake (really, how unbelievable is it?, when you even get Zionists calling for all Arabs to be nuked on TSR itself). Anyway, here are a few more articles out of the many hundreds which you can find online.

Facebook campaign calls on Israelis to kill a Palestinian 'terrorist' every hour until missing teenagers found
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/online-campaign-calling-on-israelis-to-kill-a-palestinian-terrorist-every-hour-until-missing-teenagers-found-9540604.html

Terrifying tweets of pre-Army Israeli teens
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/terrifying-tweets-israeli.html

Israeli Politician calls for Mothers of Palestinians to be killed
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why-im-on-the-brink-of-burning-my-israeli-passport-9600165.html

Israeli Professor calls for Rape of Hamas' Mothers and Sisters
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/israeli-professor-rape-hamas-militiants-mothers-sisters-deter-terrorist-attacks-1457836

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 3651

anarchism101

Original post by Sic semper erat

Gaza is not occupied by Israel no matter how much you'd like to think and say so. Israel withdrew completely to the 1967 lines and its now ruled by Hamas. "Occupied population" wow, the first occupied population in history that doesnt have a single foreign solider on its territory, amazing how much BS you guys can come up with. An "occupied population" that has its own government too, lol

An occupation ends when sovereignty is established/re-established, not when ground troops pull out. And contrary to what you'd thought was a gotcha, yes this had led to situations where countries have been considered occupied despite troops having been withdrawn; for example, South Africa withdrew its last troops from Namibia in November 1989, but the occupation is still considered to have continued until Namibia was established as an independent state in March 1990.

Gaza remains legally occupied because Israel still maintains effective control. and because sovereignty has not been established.

Have you ever heard of the Oslo Accords? Arafat and Rabin agreed that 60% of the West Bank is to remain under Israeli military and civil control (until a final agreement is sorted out) while the rest is ruled under the newly formed Palestinian Authority.

I was talking more from the legal perspective. Yes, the PLO temporarily accepted the occupation pending final status negotiations, but that was a pragmatic decision rather than a legal one.

As for why theyre there in the first place maybe its because Jordan started shelling western Jerusalem to help Nasser invade Israel in the 1967 war.

Nasser did not invade Israel in 1967 - Israel invaded Egypt - though this didn't stop Israel. Not does it appear that Nasser even intended to attack, and many on the Israeli side have since acknowledged this. What is more debatable is whether Israel attacked out of a paranoid but genuine belief that Egypt would attack

By the end of the war the UN security council decided that Israel is to keep the territories (the exact wording was 'no Israeli withdrawal') and only return the territories in return for peace and security. And funnily enough "the Palestinians" aren't even mentioned in Res. 242 as such an identity didnt exist prior to the 70s.

No peace with Israel? no security arrangements? Israel is not obliged to give a single inch of land. And after Gaza turned into a launching pad for rockets after Israel's unilateral withdrawal I don't think the Israelis would be foolish to withdraw from the West Bank and create 20 more Gazas.

The text of Res. 242 does not say 'no Israeli withdrawal' anywhere. And while it calls for Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories as part of a negotiated peace, it does not legitimise the occupations until a peace is agreed - quite the opposite, it calls it 'inadmissible'.

Its settled and will continue to be settled.

So do you actually have an answer to the question.

That's not entirely accurate. Firstly Jews had always lived in that land and immigration there began as early as the 1800s, mostly individual families and by no means as an organized group.

Hence why I said a mostly new population. Yes, there was a very small long-standing native Jewish population, and some early Zionist settlers, but the vast bulk of the Jewish population in 1948 were recent migrants.

Secondly masses of Arabs from surrounding countries immigrated to that land too at the same time Jews did (looking for work). So your statement about an "already-present population" is far from the truth, at least not in the case of what's modern Israel. For example during British rule alone at least 50,000 Arabs immigrated there (historian Martin Gilbert).

While of course there was immigration by Arabs to Palestine, it was minimal. The British themselves concluded that the increase in the Arab population was mostly down to natural increase. The claim of mass immigration by Arabs is largely a propaganda myth that some have tried to cling to by revising the numbers down a bit.

There are tons of accounts about that place, from C.S. Lewis to the British High Commission. A land acknowledged by virtually everyone as desolate, filled with malaria.

There are also reports calling it a rich and productive land, including from early Jewish settlers surprised at how difficult it was for them to find available arable land.

By the way in regards to the other countries you're mistaken if you think these borders and regimes arent "transplanted". They are transplanted through and through, and what you see happening in Syria and Iraq simply reflects how artificial the Skyes-Picot lines are.

States like Iraq and Syria are artificial, yes, but not transplanted. They were borders and states placed on an already-present population. Israel was a state created for a mostly new population there precisely for the creation of Israel.

To put it another way, the process of the creation of Iraq and Syria was that there was a population there, and so a particular state was needed to govern the area. For Israel it was largely the other way round; there was going to be a particular state in the area, and so it needed a population to govern.

Reply 3652

well in the dark

Original post by DiddyDec

Apparently Hamas were voted for democratically. So somebody must have wanted them in power. They are still a terrorist organisation they just got voted to power.

Yeah, they're a legitimate government in the eyes of the Palestinian people. They're only terrorists to Israel. Israel is a terrorist in the eyes of the Palestinians. Do you consider Israel a terrorist?

Original post by DiddyDec

How is it that Hamas have underground bunkers for themselves if they can't get building supplies?

Have you any substantial evidence from a non-Zionist, non-propagandist source of lavish underground bunkers Hamas built using these 'building supplies' (care to elaborate on those, as nothing goes into Gaza without the express permission of Israel?) you are talking about?

Original post by DiddyDec

I am completely against the violence against the innocent civilians. You should remember that schools and hospitals were not built to with stand bombings and missile attacks. At least with a shelter the odds of survival would improve.

Like I already said, even Israel requires funding from outsiders to build its defences, and Israel is a government that is considered legitimate and Israel is a country with its own relatively flourishing economy.

Original post by DiddyDec

Hamas are the ones firing the rockets we all know that. They are firing the rockets to supposedly protect the people of Gaza. This is the only protecting they have, which quite clearly doesn't work. That is why they need non-combat ways of protecting themselves. There are many residents that don't want Hamas to continue with their ridiculous action, but they have nowhere to hide.

I am not blaming the deaths of Gaza on Hamas, however I am saying they could do so much more to at least look they give a **** about the people's lives they are putting at risk by continuing the is ridiculous war. They don't care about the people at all. Hamas has built its central command bunker under a hospital for **** sake. That is the definition of using a human shield.

I don't understand what your point is.
Obviously Hamas cares about the people, as they have repeatedly called on Israel to lift the blockade which severely reduces the quality of life in Gaza, so if you think Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians you need to provide an argument for that.
Hamas not building bomb shelters is not an argument. As I have already said, Gaza is under a blockade. Israel rations everything that goes in and comes out of Gaza. You assume that Hamas is fully capable of building bomb shelters, though you give no reason why you assume that.
The reason Hamas resists is because they want the blockade on Gaza lifted, so that life for Gazans is better. As it is they would not require bomb shelters if Israel did lift the blockade, as Israel would probably stop bombing the life out of Gaza then.

Edit: May I also add that you cannot say that Palestinians have technically nowhere to hide. There are buildings designated as shelters and off limits by the United Nations, though they are severely overcrowded. Israel has chosen to bomb those as well.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 3653

Meenglishnogood

Original post by tsr1269

As I have already said, you are insignificant in the grander scheme of things.

Your post did not make it clear.

As it stands, you believe the Jews to be terrorists.

Your words, not mine and I shall often repeat it in my discussions with you.
?

again, i stated quite clearly that hamas were the terrorists, as confirmed by most countries the EU etc etc so there is no arguing about that. you are just trying to interpret what you want to, based on your own personal hangups with the jews.

Original post by tsr1269

The Arabs won via military conquest. They didn't win via mass illegal immigration and then demanding their own state.

If they had won it through military conquest instead of mass illegal immigration, then that would be a fair comment.
?

indeed, we all know this -the arabs invaded levant (amoung others) murdering many and theiving land and assets. this proceedure seems morally acceptable to you - so you answer to the whole current palestine issue is for israel to copy what the arabs did and fully invade palestine - im glad that the others on this site can hear your view on this.

Original post by tsr1269

I just find it sick that you would abuse the hospitality of those who have initially welcomed you. ?

like islamists have done all over the globe you mean?

Original post by tsr1269

Maybe you just don't understand, eh?

not your mentality, no

Reply 3654

tsr1269

Original post by Pinzgauer

You don't find anything wrong with UN-run schools teaching kids that their neighbours shouldn't exist? :eek:

Wow. I think we're finally seeing you for what you are.

Maybe you could state your reasons instead of simply resorting to hyperbole...

Reply 3655

Meenglishnogood

Original post by tsr1269

The actions of a democratic party are supposed to reflect their principles.

You do not attempt a coup of the government if you stand for democracy.

thats exactly what hamas did, hence the battle of Gaza ( look it up to help counteract you ignorance on palestine conflict)

Reply 3656

Pinzgauer

Original post by Ganhad

You've been answered.

No country in the world puts its citizens and soldiers lives at more risk than is necessary.

Already IDF soldiers are dying because they have to go door to door without just flattening the areas.

Are you really expecting them to engage every mortar cell in close quarters combat? :rolleyes:

Reply 3657

Pinzgauer

Yes, all looks very genuine :rolleyes:

Reply 3658

Clip

@TSR I just had a threesome with Jennifer Lawrence and Miranda Kerr whilst Christina Hendricks watched. #YOLO.

I posted it on Insta, so it must be true.