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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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[h="1"]Why Does Israel Keep Changing Its Story On Gaza?[/h]
The Times of Israel publishes then deletes an article postulating that Israel is permitted to commit genocide

[h="1"]Foreign Office is investigating reports that an Israeli soldier captured by Hamas is British[/h]
Original post by RoyalBlue7
Could you tell me how Hamas could be less cowardly.


They could be less cowardly by putting the safety of their families before their hatred of Israel, by making sure their families and other peoples' families in Gaza are in safe shelters instead of using them as human shields.

I'll prove to you that you're a utter hypocrite.

1. It is obvious that the god of the Torah is a monster. It is known that he advocates war crimes against children and women. Do you deny it?


I would be a hypocrite if I were a follower of the Torah. However, I'm not a follower of the Torah. I'm a Gentile Christian who does not follow the Torah but rather follows Jesus Christ. If I followed the Torah, I would be sacrificing or wanting to sacrifice animals according to the Law of Moses in the Torah, but I don't. I believe Jesus fulfills the commands of the Torah, including animal sacrifices. When Jesus died once for all as the Lamb of God, he fulfilled the requirement for animal sacrifices that God demanded for sin offerings.

Gentile Christians are not required by God's Spirit to follow the Torah. Please see Acts 10 and Acts 15. Many Jewish Christians also believe that they are no longer under the Old Covenant's regulations but rather the New Covenant in Jesus Christ.


The God of the Quran doesn't encourage Muslims to be pacifists.


Agreed.

Fight against oppression and do not transgress. The Quran forbids breaking peace treaties and conventions. The God of the Quran is more to your liking than the god of the Torah. If you deny explain.


The god of the Qur'an is not to my liking at all, because the god of the Qur'an contradicts my Father in Heaven. Jesus taught about the Father in Heaven and the Kingdom of Heaven; he did not teach his followers to fight people but rather taught the way to the Father:
(I boldened verses below.)

'Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.' (John 14:6 NIV)

The god of the Torah is Jesus. Deny it?


The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob made a new covenant through Jesus, prophesied about by the prophet Jeremiah:

'31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. '
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Jeremiah31.html

The Torah is the Old Covenant; Jesus Christ is the New Covenant and is for Jewish people (Jesus is Jewish and is the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy) and Gentiles. When Jesus Christ rose from the dead, the New Covenant began (31:31). When Jesus Christ returns as King, 31:33-34 will be fulfilled as the house of Israel will 'Know the LORD'. :smile:


2. You object to warfare. Is it because you think its evil or because you think it goes against the teachings of Jesus. In either case explain to me how could Jesus or God advocate the killing of innocents and raping of women in the Torah???


The Old Covenant was for the time before Jesus Christ and includes prophesies/promises/Law that Jesus fulfills.

Jesus Christ did not advocate killing innocents or raping anyone, but rather told taught about the Father in Heaven and the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus Christ taught his followers to bless those who curse them, pray for those who hurt them, and do good to people (Luke 6:27-38). This is not advocating killing at all.

While Jesus did not talk about rape, he does condemn lust (Matthew 5:27-30), using hyperbole to show the importance of controlling oneself and not lusting.

Jesus also gave God's ideal for marriage while talking about divorce:

'4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[Gen. 1:27] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[Gen. 2:24]? 6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”'
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+19&version=NIV




3. I see Christianity as the explanation for the apparent failure of Jesus Christ, who was no head of state.


You are free to see Christianity however you want. God gives people free will.

Jesus Christ is my King (the Messiah) and he taught people to love enemies, not fight them. Instead of fighting the Romans who were oppressing Israel/Judea and fighting Jewish people who did not believe in him, Jesus obeyed his Father in Heaven and died for people. While he could have sent for the angels to fight for him, and he could have led a human army, he didn't. He instead became the ultimate example of love in action. God rose him from the dead and someday Jesus will return as King, thus fulfilling the rest of the Messianic prophecies/promises concerning him.
Original post by well in the dark


Doesn't matter what he is to be honest.

A Nazi officer captured by the Jews during the Holocaust deserved to be crucified and left to rot...
Original post by Inzamam99
Doesn't matter what he is to be honest.

A Nazi officer captured by the Jews during the Holocaust deserved to be crucified and left to rot...

Woah woah woah waoh, where do Nazis come into this?
Original post by Inzamam99
Doesn't matter what he is to be honest.

A Nazi officer captured by the Jews during the Holocaust deserved to be crucified and left to rot...

True, but to the British government it'd matter a whole lot. They'd campaign ferociously for his release, which would lay bare their blatant hypocrisy when it comes to British citizens fighting foreign wars.
Original post by RoyalBlue7
Using Mahatma Gandhi's name I guess would be better. Martin Luther King Jr. was fighting for civil rights and equality and his movement was not resisting occupation or state sponsored terrorism.


Don't Arabs in Palestine have an issue with Israel not treating them as equals and not giving them civil rights? If so, then MLK Jr's example is a good one.


Anyway, do you think its ethical or not ethical for a government to pay individuals to propagate their agendas in social media etc?


Governments do many things that are not ethical. I do not think it's a matter of ethical or not really to pay individuals to propagate their agendas in social media. They do anyways. For example here in the USA, the 2 main political parties pay individuals to propagate their agendas... it's a normal thing.

Is your government paying you to propagate your agenda? My government is not paying me for expressing my opinion. Actually, since I am ashamed of my country's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, and advocate Jesus' commands to love enemies, I am not all that popular with some American soldiers I know (one of my friends actually decided not to be my friend anymore due to my stance on Jesus' command to love enemies; he is a Marine who loves guns). I also would be very surprised if my government even knew I existed. I think they just see me as another American citizen born and raised in the USA and that's really it.

To me, what is most unethical is not living up to the Golden rule (which Jesus taught: Luke 6:31) of treating others how you would like to be treated. Since I don't want to be killed, I should not kill others. Since I don't want to be enslaved, I should not enslave others. Since I don't want to be hurt, I should not hurt others. To me, ethics is as simple as following the Golden Rule.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Jammy Duel
Woah woah woah waoh, where do Nazis come into this?


When the Jews were oppressed and mass murdered, I wouldn't have held it against them and completely understood if they had brutally killed any Nazi soldier they captured?

Now can you tell who is being oppressed and mass murdered at the moment and who captured a Nazi Israeli soldier?
Original post by well in the dark
True, but to the British government it'd matter a whole lot. They'd campaign ferociously for his release, which would lay bare their blatant hypocrisy when it comes to British citizens fighting foreign wars.


**** the British government
Israel. Broadly support the offensive, but I am concerned about the civilian death count.

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Inzamam99
When the Jews were oppressed and mass murdered, I wouldn't have held it against them and completely understood if they had brutally killed any Nazi soldier they captured?

Now can you tell who is being oppressed and mass murdered at the moment and who captured a Nazi Israeli soldier?

*sniff sniff* I smell reductio ad Hitelrum. And it still doesn't make severe abuse of the captive correct.
Original post by Agapelove
They could be less cowardly by putting the safety of their families before their hatred of Israel, by making sure their families and other peoples' families in Gaza are in safe shelters instead of using them as human shields.



I would be a hypocrite if I were a follower of the Torah. However, I'm not a follower of the Torah. I'm a Gentile Christian who does not follow the Torah but rather follows Jesus Christ. If I followed the Torah, I would be sacrificing or wanting to sacrifice animals according to the Law of Moses in the Torah, but I don't. I believe Jesus fulfills the commands of the Torah, including animal sacrifices. When Jesus died once for all as the Lamb of God, he fulfilled the requirement for animal sacrifices that God demanded for sin offerings.

Gentile Christians are not required by God's Spirit to follow the Torah. Please see Acts 10 and Acts 15. Many Jewish Christians also believe that they are no longer under the Old Covenant's regulations but rather the New Covenant in Jesus Christ.



Agreed.



The god of the Qur'an is not to my liking at all, because the god of the Qur'an contradicts my Father in Heaven. Jesus taught about the Father in Heaven and the Kingdom of Heaven; he did not teach his followers to fight people but rather taught the way to the Father:
(I boldened verses below.)

'Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.' (John 14:6 NIV)



The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob made a new covenant through Jesus, prophesied about by the prophet Jeremiah:

'31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. '
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Bible/Jeremiah31.html

The Torah is the Old Covenant; Jesus Christ is the New Covenant and is for Jewish people (Jesus is Jewish and is the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy) and Gentiles. When Jesus Christ rose from the dead, the New Covenant began (31:31). When Jesus Christ returns as King, 31:33-34 will be fulfilled as the house of Israel will 'Know the LORD'. :smile:



The Old Covenant was for the time before Jesus Christ and includes prophesies/promises/Law that Jesus fulfills.

Jesus Christ did not advocate killing innocents or raping anyone, but rather told taught about the Father in Heaven and the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus Christ taught his followers to bless those who curse them, pray for those who hurt them, and do good to people (Luke 6:27-38). This is not advocating killing at all.

While Jesus did not talk about rape, he does condemn lust (Matthew 5:27-30), using hyperbole to show the importance of controlling oneself and not lusting.

Jesus also gave God's ideal for marriage while talking about divorce:

'4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[Gen. 1:27] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[Gen. 2:24]? 6So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”'
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew+19&version=NIV





You are free to see Christianity however you want. God gives people free will.

Jesus Christ is my King (the Messiah) and he taught people to love enemies, not fight them. Instead of fighting the Romans who were oppressing Israel/Judea and fighting Jewish people who did not believe in him, Jesus obeyed his Father in Heaven and died for people. While he could have sent for the angels to fight for him, and he could have led a human army, he didn't. He instead became the ultimate example of love in action. God rose him from the dead and someday Jesus will return as King, thus fulfilling the rest of the Messianic prophecies/promises concerning him.


I advise you to keep your posts short, for your own good, and not to preach. I have read the gospels, understood it and chose to reject it.

You jumped the gun. I asked you some questions and you chose to ignore the killer ones.

Why didn't Jesus stop his father from advocating the killing of innocents and the raping of women? First this.

And also tell me how could Hamas do what you want them to do? Shelter civilians?

Posted from TSR Mobile
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Agapelove
******

Get off your high horse.

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. Samuel 15:3 or something like that

And millions more.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by RoyalBlue7
Let Jesus make love with the Antichrist. Shhhh

Posted from TSR Mobile


Do you know what make love means? I'm really shocked at your statement. Hopefully it's a big misunderstanding due to cultural differences.

When Jesus Christ comes back (which is a huge miracle, by the way, after more than 2,000 years), he will destroy the antichrist, not 'make love' with the antichrist.

Jesus destroying the antichrist when he comes back as the King (after more than 2,000 years) does not abrogate his command for his mere mortal followers to love their enemies. His followers are not the Messiah/King; Jesus Christ is the Messiah/King and he has the authority to fulfill the rest of Psalm 2 when he comes back.
Just reading through this article and seeing the way opinion across the political spectrum is starting to turn against Israel, I'm beginning to wonder whether the Israeli government has considered whether its actions lately are in their own long-term interests.

Despite longstanding Western and in particular US support for Israel, they seem increasingly hard pressed to turn a blind eye to Israel's actions in the region. The UN has already condemned them repeatedly. I also worry that such a disproportionate and brutal retaliation will only engender more anti-Semitism and Islamic militancy; not to mention potentially destabilising the region further as countries like Iran adopt an even more antagonistic posture to Israel/the West.

Benjamin Netanyahu and much of the Israeli leadership are, or at least were at one point, intelligent people. Are they being short-sighted in this conflict, though? Or do they feel that this actually secures their long term interests better than a less bloody response?
Original post by Agapelove
Do you know what make love means? I'm really shocked at your statement. Hopefully it's a big misunderstanding due to cultural differences.

When Jesus Christ comes back (which is a huge miracle, by the way, after more than 2,000 years), he will destroy the antichrist, not 'make love' with the antichrist.

Jesus destroying the antichrist when he comes back as the King (after more than 2,000 years) does not abrogate his command for his mere mortal followers to love their enemies. His followers are not the Messiah/King; Jesus Christ is the Messiah/King and he has the authority to fulfill the rest of Psalm 2 when he comes back.


I know, sorry, that was a little too much. Prophet Isa (AS) is above all those things.

Now, you're saying like God had the right to genocide (Noah's Flood), Jesus has the right to fulfil prophecies through violence. Talk about practicing what you preach.



Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Jammy Duel
*sniff sniff* I smell reductio ad Hitelrum. And it still doesn't make severe abuse of the captive correct.

Really? He has no qualms about invading Gaza and slaughtering innocents, but we should have qualms about him having a taste of his own medicine? Actually I personally do not advocate for abuse of criminals but I would certainly not go out of my way to advocate for this criminal's well being. The people who hold him are the people whose families and friends he would not think twice about shooting in the head because he'd think it was 'self-defence' or some such bull****, I would think they're in perfect position to deal with him as they please. Even so, I highly doubt they will touch a hair on his head, as he will be essential in negotiations if Israel will be willing to stoop so low.
Original post by Agapelove
Do you know what make love means? I'm really shocked at your statement. Hopefully it's a big misunderstanding due to cultural differences.

When Jesus Christ comes back (which is a huge miracle, by the way, after more than 2,000 years), he will destroy the antichrist, not 'make love' with the antichrist.

Jesus destroying the antichrist when he comes back as the King (after more than 2,000 years) does not abrogate his command for his mere mortal followers to love their enemies. His followers are not the Messiah/King; Jesus Christ is the Messiah/King and he has the authority to fulfill the rest of Psalm 2 when he comes back.


I know statements like that which are lies hurts you. Imagine the nasty things said about my Prophet which I can totally justify as bull****, but which they still repeat? Do you think that falls under hurting your enemies?

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by RoyalBlue7
I advise you to keep your posts short, for your own good, and not to preach.


I am free to write how I do. You are free to ignore what I write.

You jumped the gun. I asked you some questions and you chose to ignore the killer ones.


Just as you are free to ignore much of what I write (and you do ignore much of what I write), so I am free to ignore what I want too.

Why didn't Jesus stop his father from advocating the killing of innocents and the raping of women? First this.


Since Jesus did not address this issue to his followers, I cannot quote him like I can with his addressing the issue of what to do with enemies (love them: Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37).

Since I am not either God or Jesus Christ, I cannot answer that.

And also tell me how could Hamas do what you want them to do? Shelter civilians?

]


This one I can answer. :smile:

Hamas could stop shooting rockets into Israel and harboring rockets in civilian places, and instead should appeal to the world to help them create safe houses for the children and women and elderly. This would be the honorable thing to do.

Israel, by the way, should stop attacking Gaza and should instead keep on protecting its civilians from attacks. If both groups would stop attacking each other, safe shelters would not even be needed.
Original post by RoyalBlue7
I know statements like that which are lies hurts you. Imagine the nasty things said about my Prophet which I can totally justify as bull****, but which they still repeat? Do you think that falls under hurting your enemies?

Posted from TSR Mobile

Jesus is a Muslim prophet too, I highly doubt that was an Islamic thing to say. Just saying/
Original post by RoyalBlue7
I know, sorry, that was a little too much.


Don't apologize to me. Jesus Christ is the one you offended.

Prophet Isa (AS) is above all those things.


Jesus Christ is both prophet (like Moses) and Messiah/King, the son of God and yes he is most definitely above such things.


Now, you're saying like God had the right to genocide (Noah's Flood), Jesus has the right to fulfil prophecies through violence. Talk about practicing what you preach.


God does not have to obey the commands he gives to his creation. Jesus Christ, when he comes back as King, has to fulfill the rest of the prophecies/promises concerning him.

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