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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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Original post by Pinzgauer
LOL :biggrin:

The UN admitted 3 schools had weapons caches and Israel found a UN facility wired with explosives hidden in the walls.

OMG THREE PLACES!!!!
And how many "military targets" has Israel bombed/shelled in the last few weeks? Pretty sure it's a lot more than 3.
Original post by Jammy Duel
OMG THREE PLACES!!!!
And how many "military targets" has Israel bombed/shelled in the last few weeks? Pretty sure it's a lot more than 3.

probably should add that Hamas choose to use palestinian hospitals as they bases of operation for some reason ...im sure making the patients there feel very safe
Original post by Pinzgauer
LOL :biggrin:

The UN admitted 3 schools had weapons caches and Israel found a UN facility wired with explosives hidden in the walls.


What's your opinion:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152640442829532&fref=nf
Times Of Israel Removes 'When Genocide Is Permissible' Posthttp://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/times-israel-genocide-permissible
Original post by Ganhad
its not tactics its common sense so you dont drop bombs and kill children but athiests ofc have different morals to the rest of us :s-smilie:


From the way you put that, you make it sound like athiests have no concept of right or wrong and just tear **** up whenever they feel like it.

I guess one can also say that we should just let all the kids die, maybe even nuke the families too, but that's fine because it would all be part of God's plan, no?
Original post by DiddyDec
Why are there little to no bomb shelters in Gaza?

It seems very strange to me that Hamas have not built any shelters for their people. They know full well that Israel will return fire yet they don't protect themselves as best they can. Even a makeshift bomb shelter is better than nothing and it might actually reduce civilian casualties.

It can't be that they don't have building supplies, they have an entire city around them. They also have the work force, I'm sure the Palestinian people would want something to protect them other than firing rockets aimlessly.

Do Hamas actually care about the people in Gaza?


So people will die and be outraged. It's for propaganda.

Billions are given to them they choose to make tunnels instead. Sane people can't fathom it but the world is jumping on the "Save Gaza" bandwagon.

Posted from TSR Mobile
Can you imagine how big a target a bomb shelter under construction would be? Israel will bomb your children before you're halfway done.
Original post by miavdbt
You can't develop yourself in the middle of a conflict. The Gazans are already relying on aid, this wouldn't be new to them. During a conflict, the primary objective on a domestic level should be to keep your civilians from harm's way.

Once the conflict is over, then you start to rebuild.


The Israeli's want to keep the Gazans reliant on aid. They believe that if the Gazans become self-reliant, then the blockade will serve no useful purpose.

There was a story a couple of years ago stating that the only "aid" that Israel allows through, is just about enough to stave off malnutrition. They count the frigging calories.

Yes, but this doesn't have to be the case during a conflict especially in the situation of land scarcity which you claim Gaza has. If the most empty areas in the entire Gaza strip are just those farm lands, then it makes perfect sense that the few farmers occupying the farms would evacuate them for the duration of the conflict.


What "conflict" are you talking about? It's a constant conflict.

Yes, but taking into account that there were no shelters, surely underground tunnels would have achieved a similar job?


You can't pack 260,000+ in those tunnels.

A tunnel is a tunnel, not a shelter. There is no reinforcement of the tunnel. The only usefulness is that it is underground which is negated by the fact that you can't fit 260,000 in them...

​There aren't warning systems in place by Hamas (another thing they should have thought about) but the fact remains that Israel lets Palestinians know when there will be airstrikes through various methods.


There is no point in having warning systems in place as this will achieve nothing....
Original post by Pinzgauer
At least it means the IDF can now progress and eliminate the enemy without worrying about the welfare of this soldier.


They've actually started pulling back forces...

Couple that with the Israeli airstrike just now on a UN-run school, the US is really not going to be happy with their "Israeli problem"...
Original post by tsr1269
They've actually started pulling back forces...

Couple that with the Israeli airstrike just now on a UN-run school, the US is really not going to be happy with their "Israeli problem"...


They'll still be swatting terrorists with air strikes.

As for another "UN School" - we can clearly see the tactic by Hamas. Use schools extensively as weapons storage and launching pads.

Strange how it's always UN schools, eh? Almost as if Hamas (and perhaps some within UNRWA) do it on purpose because they know hitting a UN school makes bigger political waves :wink:
Gaza reporter startled by Hamas terrorist rocket fire

Remember they "don't use civilian areas to fire from" (Jeremy Bowen)

Original post by Pinzgauer
They'll still be swatting terrorists with air strikes.


I wouldn't be too sure about that. At this moment, it's just damage control for the Israeli's. The cabinet are saying that the "operation is not over" but that's just empty rhetoric.

We both know that these are just words intended not to dampen the morale of the Israeli's.

As for another "UN School" - we can clearly see the tactic by Hamas. Use schools extensively as weapons storage and launching pads.


I don't think that it has been proved that they did use UN schools as "weapons storage and launching pads". Please stick to factual information as opposed to resorting to IDF propaganda.

Strange how it's always UN schools, eh? Almost as if Hamas (and perhaps some within UNRWA) do it on purpose because they know hitting a UN school makes bigger political waves :wink:


For some reason, you seem intent on looking at this from a PR perspective instead of addressing the factual arguments.

For this reason, you pretty much confirm that you are part of the hasbara programme, or at least affiliated to it in some way, manner or form, as postulated by many other users in this thread...
Original post by tsr1269


The Israeli's want to keep the Gazans reliant on aid. They believe that if the Gazans become self-reliant, then the blockade will serve no useful purpose.

Source? Or speculation?

There was a story a couple of years ago stating that the only "aid" that Israel allows through, is just about enough to stave off malnutrition. They count the frigging calorie

Apparently they counted the calories to ensure that enough Humanitarian aid was getting through. And 2300 calories per person is hardly malnutrition levels. Heck, I don't eat more than 2000 a day and that's perfectly healthy according to calorie guides. This is completely besides the point however. The original point which you're trying to avoid is whether you think it's better to bomb from places packed with civilians or farm land?

I don't know why you're trying so hard to deflect from the original argument. Or why you're trying to claim that in times of war, one should be thinking about their economic policies rather than how to save their civilians. Ultimately, what you're saying is that Hamas is choosing to kill their civilians so they don't suffer a food shortage if their crops are destroyed and they have to be subservient to Israel.

Do you honestly believe it's more important that the people of Gaza are self sufficient (something that won't be achieved for years even with their farmland in tact) or alive? Because given the choice, I'd pick being alive to being self sufficient any day.



What "conflict" are you talking about? It's a constant conflict.

Please. We've been discussing Operation Protective Edge this whole time, if you haven't noticed. Yeah, it's a constant conflict thanks to Hamas. It sucks for Israelis and Palestinians alike.

You can't pack 260,000+ in those tunnels.

A tunnel is a tunnel, not a shelter. There is no reinforcement of the tunnel. The only usefulness is that it is underground which is negated by the fact that you can't fit 260,000 in them..

Hamas should have thought about shelters. If not, then they should have used what they had at hand - the tunnels. But they didn't, because Hamas simply had them stuffed with weapons to carry out military operations in Israel. Note that they didn't use them for smuggling things like medicine or food, but rather for terrorizing Israel.

Also, you don't know what the capacity of those tunnels is. There have been 31 destroyed so far, and more to go. For all you know they could have served as shelters for those who needed it the most (i.e. the ones who were about to get their houses bombed and asked in front of the international media where they should go, for example).



There is no point in having warning systems in place as this will achieve nothing....

Yeah, except lower the civilian victim count. Instead, Hamas tells its civilians to not pay attention to Israeli warnings as they're 'psychological warfare'

Then again, you're right. In terms of what Hamas wants, and that's more civilians dead so the Western sheep can cry about the dead kids and blame Israel, warning systems will achieve nothing.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by miavdbt
Source? Or speculation?

Apparently they counted the calories to ensure that enough Humanitarian aid was getting through. This is completely besides the point however. The original point which you're trying to avoid is whether you think it's better to bomb from places packed with civilians or farm land?


Yes, "apparently"...

I don't know why you're trying so hard to deflect from the original argument. Or why you're trying to claim that in times of war, one should be thinking about their economic policies rather than how to save their civilians. Ultimately, what you're saying is that Hamas is choosing to kill their civilians so they don't suffer a food shortage if their crops are destroyed and they have to be subservient to Israel.

Do you honestly believe it's more important that the people of Gaza are self sufficient (something that won't be achieved for years even with their farmland in tact) or alive? Because given the choice, I'd pick being alive to being self sufficient any day.


You'd pick starvation over being killed? You are strange...

Please. We've been discussing Operation Protective Edge this whole time, if you haven't noticed. Yeah, it's a constant conflict thanks to Hamas. It sucks for Israelis and Palestinians alike.


But it's a constant conflict. These "operations" seem never-ending...

Hamas should have thought about shelters. If not, then they should have used what they had at hand - the tunnels. But they didn't, because Hamas simply had them stuffed with weapons to carry out military operations in Israel. Note that they didn't use them for smuggling things like medicine or food, but rather for terrorizing Israel.


It's not like a Palestinian can exactly walk through the tunnel into Israel, go into a pharmacy or a grocery store, purchase the goods and head back to the tunnel.

Also, you don't know what the capacity of those tunnels is. There have been 31 destroyed so far, and more to go. For all you know they could have served as shelters for those who needed it the most (i.e. the ones who were about to get their houses bombed and asked in front of the international media where they should go, for example).


I am going by available information. You are just speculating.

Yeah, except lower the civilian victim count. Instead, Hamas tells its civilians to not pay attention to Israeli warnings as they're 'psychological warfare'

Then again, you're right. In terms of what Hamas wants, and that's more civilians dead so the Western sheep can cry about the dead kids and blame Israel, warning systems will achieve nothing.


How will having warning systems "lower the civilian victim count" if:

a) Gazans have no bomb shelters to evacuate to.
b) The warning systems will probably be taken out as a prelude to war.


Furthermore, the skies over Gazze will probably be filled with drones, fighter jets and bombers so there will be incessant sirens, that is if the Israeli's don't take them out first.

A warning system will be made bloody redundant in the first few minutes of any conflict...
[QUOTE="tsr1269;48993386"]Yes, "apparently"...

Wow. You would have your civilian population killed so you can save your crops which the civilian population can't even sustain itself on, anyway.



You'd pick starvation over being killed? You are strange...

​No one is starving. This has been said many times. They rely mostly on humanitarian aid anyway. No one is going to let them starve. The International Community will have a fit.

Again, they rely on Humanitarian Aid anyway. This is NOT going to be a staggering difference from what they're used to. So no one is picking starvation over being killed, they're picking humanitarian aid over being killed.




But it's a constant conflict. These "operations" seem never-ending...

Well, then that's something for Hamas to consider. I mean, if they know the operations are constant, whether or not they like to blame them on the Israelis or their own obstinance, you'd think at least they'd convert some of that farm land to military bases. Or build military bases where they can fire their rockets from, rather than do so from a hospital. Apparently they have an endless supply of humanitarian financial aid which they like to steal anyway, so might as well use it for making the lives of the civilians slightly less dangerous.



It's not like a Palestinian can exactly walk through the tunnel into Israel, go into a pharmacy or a grocery store, purchase the goods and head back to the tunnel.

​But they can walk through the tunnel into Israel, kidnap an Israeli or carry out a suicide bomber attack, and then go back home and complain about the airstrikes that occur?

I am going by available information. You are just speculating.

​Really? So you know what the capacity of those tunnels is? There are 31 uncovered so far. They must be kilometers long each to be able to go into Israel. Tell me again why people can't find shelter underground. Where else would you advise them to go?



How will having warning systems "lower the civilian victim count" if:

a) Gazans have no bomb shelters to evacuate to.
b) The warning systems will probably be taken out as a prelude to war.


Furthermore, the skies over Gazze will probably be filled with drones, fighter jets and bombers so there will be incessant sirens, that is if the Israeli's don't take them out first.

A warning system will be made bloody redundant in the first few minutes of any conflict...

You're right, warning systems are redundant because Hamas wants their civilians to stay where they are anyway. Israel warns them. Must suck for Hamas. Israel treating Gazan civilians in a more humanitarian manner than Hamas does.

Either way, I'm pretty sure you're just insisting on this unrealistic nonsense about self sustenance (which hasn't happened and will not happen for a while anyway) just so you don't have to admit that Hamas can use farm land to fire its rockets from and not put its civilians at risk. Is it so difficult to admit that your heroes are not infallible?
Original post by nexttime
Can you imagine how big a target a bomb shelter under construction would be? Israel will bomb your children before you're halfway done.


Of course with Israel citing the potential for Hamas to store weapons there as sufficient reasoning to bomb it.
Original post by Pinzgauer
Gaza reporter startled by Hamas terrorist rocket fire

Remember they "don't use civilian areas to fire from" (Jeremy Bowen)



Given that 1.5 million people are contained within an area the size of the Isle of Wight with no means of escape, where would you consider not to be a 'civilian area'?
Original post by looseseal
Of course with Israel citing the potential for Hamas to store weapons there as sufficient reasoning to bomb it.


Let's face it, if bomb shelters for civilians existed in Gaza for the public they would get packed with explosive and would go off if anything exploded near it.
Yet Another UN School Bombed By Israel

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/03/uk-mideast-gaza-idUKKBN0FV04D20140803

Seems like these Zionists really are thirsty for the blood of children.
Original post by Suetonius
Given that 1.5 million people are contained within an area the size of the Isle of Wight with no means of escape, where would you consider not to be a 'civilian area'?


You could have a look at the discussion TSR and I are having. Perhaps you could help him out. He's having difficulty explaining why the empty farm fields are not a better alternative for firing rockets as opposed to the overcrowded hospitals and schools.

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