The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

Original post by miavdbt

You're right, warning systems are redundant because Hamas wants their civilians to stay where they are anyway. Israel warns them. Must suck for Hamas. Israel treating Gazan civilians in a more humanitarian manner than Hamas does.

Either way, I'm pretty sure you're just insisting on this unrealistic nonsense about self sustenance (which hasn't happened and will not happen for a while anyway) just so you don't have to admit that Hamas can use farm land to fire its rockets from and not put its civilians at risk. Is it so difficult to admit that your heroes are not infallible?

DO you even have any evidence (and the IDF doesn't count) for this whole "Hamas won't let them move" claim? You lot are constantly making it but won't back it up.

Reply 4303

Original post by Sic semper erat

Imagine if 3,127 rockets were fired at London or New York, even with defense systems and bomb shelters

Bombing Gaza isnt just self defense, its morality

Imagine if the London or New York was blockaded and the people were forced to live in poverty.

Resistance isn't terrorism, it's morality.

p.s. in neither case it it "morality".

Reply 4304

miavdbt

6

Original post by Jammy Duel

DO you even have any evidence (and the IDF doesn't count) for this whole "Hamas won't let them move" claim? You lot are constantly making it but won't back it up.

I did back it up. With a statement by them.

Reply 4305

Original post by Suetonius

Given that 1.5 million people are contained within an area the size of the Isle of Wight with no means of escape, where would you consider not to be a 'civilian area'?

May I suggest less BBC-watching and more fact-finding?

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Gaza+Strip/@31.5686134,34.5062438,3869m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x14fd844104b258a9:0x7e8955cbe285984e

Reply 4306

Original post by miavdbt

I did back it up. With a statement by them.

How many dozen pages ago?

Reply 4307

Original post by Jammy Duel

DO you even have any evidence (and the IDF doesn't count) for this whole "Hamas won't let them move" claim? You lot are constantly making it but won't back it up.

You've obviously ignored a lot of posts.

Fast forward to about 0:20

Reply 4308

Original post by Sic semper erat

Blockade coming after the rocket attacks began and weapons being smuggled...

Indeed.

First rocket fired = 2001
Israel withdrawal from Gaza = 2005
Blockade = 2007

Reply 4309

looseseal

11

One thing I'm curious about is whether Hamas rocket fire on Israel has significantly decreased since Israel begun bombarding "military" targets in Gaza.

If not, you'd have to question the effectiveness of this tactic by the IDF. As not only are they causing an unacceptable level of civilian casualties (as stated by numerous official international entities) but they are also breeding a new generation of Hamas fighters. When such a considerable number of innocents are killed in a conflict it just breeds hate and fuels a lust for revenge. The IDF are essentially providing Hamas with a ready-made recruitment strategy. And when a group like Hamas, which for all intents and purposes is a terrorist organisation, is being readily supplicated with members hell-bent on revenge against Israel, it makes reaching any diplomatic agreements for peace almost impossible. As understandably, Israel would find the idea of a two state solution (with blockades removed) inconceivable if the group running the opposing state has sects that would love nothing more than to see them wiped out.

Aside from future issues, one would also have to ask whether trying to bomb out of existence a group like Hamas, who hides within the civilian populace, can actually be achieved without wiping out the whole of Gaza. It's quite clear Hamas have no qualms about firing from houses, hospitals and (potentially) schools, so how on earth do you expect to effectively target an entity like that when their area of operation is essentially the entire Gaza strip. What's worrying is that the possibility of the whole of Gaza being raised to the ground might not be that far outside the realms of reality as it seems the IDF have developed a blatant disregard for Palestinian life judging by the what's happened so far in the conflict (the rocket warnings they provide are laughable when almost half of Gaza is a warzone and civilians essentially have no sufficient shelter against bomb blasts).

In all honesty, I think the only rational reason for the IDF to be continuing this bombardment of Gaza is to create the illusion for Israeli citizens that they are actively doing something about the continual stream of rockets Hamas sends into Israel. Although when you consider the number of civilian casualties actually experienced by Israel you have to wonder how serious of a threat Hamas rockets truly are to the population. Israel's security measures against such attacks are highly effective (Iron dome, sirens, bomb shelters etc) therefore when all actualities are considered, the IDF's bombardment of Gaza is almost certainly counter-productive to achieving their aims of peace and safety for Israeli citizens.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 4310

miavdbt

6

Original post by Jammy Duel

How many dozen pages ago?

I'd also like to say that you did twist my words. In my statement, I said Hamas wants them to stay not made them stay (for that, I can't provide evidence yet, but no doubt that will come up eventually). Anyway, here's a Reuters article:

Hamas, whose internal political leadership is in hiding, said its broadcasters Al-Aqsa TV and Al-Aqsa Radio were also targeted. The television station continued to broadcast but the radio station went silent.
The military said the stations were used to "transit orders and messages to Hamas operatives and to instruct Gaza residents to ignore IDF (Israel Defence Forces) warnings regarding upcoming military activity in specific areas."

If this is not enough, here is a statement by Hamas themselves.

“To all of our people who have evacuated their homes – return to them immediately and do not leave the house,” said a statement titled “Urgent call to the residents of the Gaza Strip” released by the Hamas Interior Ministry, Ynet reported. “You must follow the directives of the Interior Ministry. This is psychological warfare, random messages to instill panic in people.”

Reply 4311

Original post by Pinzgauer

You've obviously ignored a lot of posts.

Fast forward to about 0:20

So, these people are making this claim. Can you please point out on that list where Hamas is? They also quite like telling us that they mostly don't affiliate with Hamas. And, as one of the comments pointed out, it's not really an instruction to be a human shield. The instruction to be a human shield would be to congregate at the places Hamas tell them to where the weapons have been placed.

Reply 4312

Original post by looseseal

One thing I'm curious about is whether Hamas rocket fire on Israel has significantly decreased since Israel begun bombarding "military" targets in Gaza.

If not, you'd have to question the effectiveness of this tactic by the IDF.

They have spent years building up their rocket infrastructure. Much of it is buried underground.

It would take a long time to devastate it to the point of no more rockets being fired.

You obviously have a poor grasp of military understanding.

Reply 4313

Original post by Pinzgauer

They have spent years building up their rocket infrastructure. Much of it is buried underground.

It would take a long time to devastate it to the point of no more rockets being fired.

Except, the other day the IDF claimed it would;d take them three days to destroy the tunnel network, and surely given how many missile attacks and shellings Israel has made on Gaza the current supply should be as good as gone. Well, if they actually bothered attacking predominantly military targets.

You obviously have a poor grasp of military understanding.

Nice joke.

Reply 4314

XMaramena

22

Original post by broscience123

(SPOILER: They were both lies)

Proof?

Reply 4315

looseseal

11

Original post by Jammy Duel

Except, the other day the IDF claimed it would;d take them three days to destroy the tunnel network, and surely given how many missile attacks and shellings Israel has made on Gaza the current supply should be as good as gone. Well, if they actually bothered attacking predominantly military targets.

Nice joke.

I honestly think that it's impossible trying to debate with that Pinzgauer guy. They pretty much ignore any argument that criticises Israel or IDF tactics. It's almost like trying to use logic and reason against a religious fanatic.

Reply 4316

miavdbt

6

Original post by Jammy Duel

...

I wonder why you didn't respond to the sources I sent you! Is it because you can't admit that you were wrong and Hamas did ask its people to stay in their homes, claiming IDF is using 'psychological warfare' ?

Reply 4317

Original post by Jammy Duel

Except, the other day the IDF claimed it would;d take them three days to destroy the tunnel network, and surely given how many missile attacks and shellings Israel has made on Gaza the current supply should be as good as gone. Well, if they actually bothered attacking predominantly military targets.

Estimated to have had over 10,000 rockets.

I don't know why you're confusing the tunnels with rockets. When I said the rockets were underground, I wasn't talking about storing them there. I mean underground launchers. Mechanised underground launchers that open trap doors, fire, then retreat below.

Nice joke.

Yes. yes you are.

Reply 4318