This discussion is now closed.
Check out other Related discussions
- The Arsenal Thread XXVI
- The Arsenal Thread XXV
- What team do you support and why?
- Premier League Run In
- Premier League Predictions 2023-24
- elsie wellbeing update at the end of 2023 :)
- Im bored as hell
- The Liverpool FC Thread XVII
- Tottenham Hotspur Society II
- Is Bukayo Saka the face of the Premier League?
- Devonshire - Coach House
- Southampton offers?
- 999 call handler interview
- TSR emojis are so silly
- Does carbohydrates cause acne?
- Cambridge MASt (Part III) applicants 2023
- Best football match you saw as a child?
- Accomodation on manor park campus
- Fitzwilliam College Cambridge Offer Holders 2023
- Essex Oral Health Science
The Arsenal Thread XX
Scroll to see replies
Original post by Kruz
Ewwww Hulk. If this was 09 I would've been excited but he hasn't lived up the hype that we thought he would.
Even back in 09 he wasn't much beyond the average. The hype of being 'that guy who is nearly as good as Neymar in the Brazil squad' has carried him far beyond what his actual performances suggest. Besides, in 09 we had (in the CF position alone) Eduardo, Van Persie, Vela and Bendtner, all of whom were actually quite good.
So so happy ! Arsenal have offered me a season ticket after 12 years of waiting !
Also we need to bring in a cdm and keep arteta / flamini as backups. Still feel we need another LB (Monreal just can't cut it) and a CB if TV5 goes .
Posted from TSR Mobile
Also we need to bring in a cdm and keep arteta / flamini as backups. Still feel we need another LB (Monreal just can't cut it) and a CB if TV5 goes .
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by BenAssirati
Even back in 09 he wasn't much beyond the average. The hype of being 'that guy who is nearly as good as Neymar in the Brazil squad' has carried him far beyond what his actual performances suggest. Besides, in 09 we had (in the CF position alone) Eduardo, Van Persie, Vela and Bendtner, all of whom were actually quite good.
Please look at Hulks record at Porto.
It's since he went to Zenit that he has turned completely ****.
Original post by barneystin
is this even fact or is it rumoured?
I would be shocked if it were fact, because £19.8m is suicidal for BvB to set in a contract. It is being reported on basically every website, and apparently was started in Germany (by Bayern), so who knows.
Original post by jam278
Please look at Hulks record at Porto.
It's since he went to Zenit that he has turned completely ****.
It's since he went to Zenit that he has turned completely ****.
54 goals in 99 appearances? In a team that completely dominates a far inferior league (along with Benfica and Sporting)?
Original post by BenAssirati
54 goals in 99 appearances? In a team that completely dominates a far inferior league (along with Benfica and Sporting)?
At right wing.
Original post by jam278
At right wing.
Your point being? Players who are deployed as 'wingers' are not necessarily at a disadvantage in scoring goals to center forwards? Just look at players like Ronaldo, Robben, Di Maria, Neymar, Reus. Hell, even Sanchez.
Original post by BenAssirati
Your point being? Players who are deployed as 'wingers' are not necessarily at a disadvantage in scoring goals to center forwards? Just look at players like Ronaldo, Robben, Di Maria, Neymar, Reus. Hell, even Sanchez.
Bar Ronaldo none of the players had better goalscoring records than Hulk at his final two seasons at Porto.
Also Ronaldo has the whole team set up to create chances for him. Benzema's goal tally is low for a striker at that club because he spends most of the time setting up Ronaldo. It's also why they sold Higuain and Morata.
You included Di Maria you're clutching at straws anyway.
In his porto days he was a top player and his final 2 seasons were better than all the players(besides ronaldo). I don't count Neymar's record as he was out of europe and it's not like he had a great goalscoring season for Barcelona last term anyway.
Original post by BenAssirati
54 goals in 99 appearances? In a team that completely dominates a far inferior league (along with Benfica and Sporting)?
portugese stats are skewed
wasnt jackson martinez something like 25 goals in 27 appearances at some point
and then theres van wolfswinkel as well
Original post by barneystin
portugese stats are skewed
wasnt jackson martinez something like 25 goals in 27 appearances at some point
and then theres van wolfswinkel as well
wasnt jackson martinez something like 25 goals in 27 appearances at some point
and then theres van wolfswinkel as well
That's completely missing the point.
I'm saying he had a very good record. Also if portuguese stats are scored explain Falcao please. Or the likes of Carvalho, Ferreira, Tiago who went to Chelsea and did a great job.
It's like me saying that the english league is skewed because Owen and Beckham didn't do too well at Real Madrid.
Original post by barneystin
portugese stats are skewed
wasnt jackson martinez something like 25 goals in 27 appearances at some point
and then theres van wolfswinkel as well
wasnt jackson martinez something like 25 goals in 27 appearances at some point
and then theres van wolfswinkel as well
That is my point. It is unfair to compare his stats with players in La Liga, Bundesliga or the Prem League and say he is 'better than most of them' because of it. I bet you Chamakh or Bendtner would get half decent records in the Primeira Liga, especially if they were in Porto (just look at the 10/11 and 12/13 league tables lmao).
Original post by jam278
That's completely missing the point.
I'm saying he had a very good record. Also if portuguese stats are scored explain Falcao please. Or the likes of Carvalho, Ferreira, Tiago who went to Chelsea and did a great job.
It's like me saying that the english league is skewed because Owen and Beckham didn't do too well at Real Madrid.
I'm saying he had a very good record. Also if portuguese stats are scored explain Falcao please. Or the likes of Carvalho, Ferreira, Tiago who went to Chelsea and did a great job.
It's like me saying that the english league is skewed because Owen and Beckham didn't do too well at Real Madrid.
if a player has talent, they have talent
Falcao was obviously talented and thats why Atleti paid so much for him. what im trying to say is that its easier to look good in Portugal, but this doesnt actually change the fact that a player might be talented.
owen wasnt a flop, his goals to minutes ratio was actually good IIRC, and at that point he wasnt the player he used to be was he? he peaked very very young IIRC.
Beckham, was it really his fault. him playing in the team caused the team to become unbalanced, but thats not his fault, its the managers fault for making bad purchases/ sales.
Original post by BenAssirati
That is my point. It is unfair to compare his stats with players in La Liga, Bundesliga or the Prem League and say he is 'better than most of them' because of it. I bet you Chamakh or Bendtner would get half decent records in the Primeira Liga, especially if they were in Porto (just look at the 10/11 and 12/13 league tables lmao).
I never said that he's better than them. I said that he had a good record at Porto and better than most wingers in other leagues.
It being an easier league is irrelevant. Especially considering top players have come out of that league. Deco, Falcao, Carvalho, Tiago, Matic etc.
Original post by barneystin
if a player has talent, they have talent Falcao was obviously talented and thats why Atleti paid so much for him.
Falcao was obviously talented and thats why Atleti paid so much for him. And Hulk wasn't?
what im trying to say is that its easier to look good in Portugal, but this doesnt actually change the fact that a player might be talented.
I get that. But my point was that he was good at Porto, yet Kruz said in 09 thats when he said he was good. So I said that his final 2 seasons at Porto were his best seasons.
owen wasnt a flop, his goals to minutes ratio was actually good IIRC, and at that point he wasnt the player he used to be was he? he peaked very very young IIRC.
I mean Woodgate not Owen. Although Owen would be considered a flop by Madrid. Or I can use the Kaka argument to show that Serie A was a crap league in 2009, despite an Italian team winning the CL the next season.
Beckham, was it really his fault. him playing in the team caused the team to become unbalanced, but thats not his fault, its the managers fault for making bad purchases/ sales.
Still counts as a flop, regardless of the circumstances at which he flopped.
Original post by jam278
I never said that he's better than them. I said that he had a good record at Porto and better than most wingers in other leagues.
It being an easier league is irrelevant. Especially considering top players have come out of that league. Deco, Falcao, Carvalho, Tiago, Matic etc.
I never said that he's better than them. I said that he had a good record at Porto and better than most wingers in other leagues.
It being an easier league is irrelevant. Especially considering top players have come out of that league. Deco, Falcao, Carvalho, Tiago, Matic etc.
So Falcao came out of that league. So what? That is a stupid argument that because a few world class players came out of a league, that league cannot be considered inferior. If there are 1/2 good teams in an league of absolute vegetables, I would consider players from those two good teams to have an easier time than say a player of similar record in the BPL or La Liga.
Arsenal all the way. We see this season Liverpool. Suarez helped you, now your gonna be nothing. You spent over 70mil on what? full of crap players. Whose won the premier league without loosing a game? ARSENAL!!!
Liverpool fans you finally got your first win against Arsenal after a very long time.
Stroke of luck really just got tactics wrong. Spurs are going to beat you to top 4 even Everton
Gerrard premier leagues : 0!
Liverpool fans you finally got your first win against Arsenal after a very long time.
Stroke of luck really just got tactics wrong. Spurs are going to beat you to top 4 even Everton
Gerrard premier leagues : 0!
Original post by jam278
And Hulk wasn't?
I get that. But my point was that he was good at Porto, yet Kruz said in 09 thats when he said he was good. So I said that his final 2 seasons at Porto were his best seasons.
I mean Woodgate not Owen. Although Owen would be considered a flop by Madrid. Or I can use the Kaka argument to show that Serie A was a crap league in 2009, despite an Italian team winning the CL the next season.
Still counts as a flop, regardless of the circumstances at which he flopped.
I get that. But my point was that he was good at Porto, yet Kruz said in 09 thats when he said he was good. So I said that his final 2 seasons at Porto were his best seasons.
I mean Woodgate not Owen. Although Owen would be considered a flop by Madrid. Or I can use the Kaka argument to show that Serie A was a crap league in 2009, despite an Italian team winning the CL the next season.
Still counts as a flop, regardless of the circumstances at which he flopped.
ok. in fairness I never saw hulk at Porto. how much did you actually watch of him? I am going off Hulk of recent years, and would certainly say he is not an elite player.
Owen cost £8m. how much did they really expect? he performed like an £8m player. and wasnt it clear that his best times were past it by that point?
kaka... is this not just the mata at mou's chelsea situation... good player in the wrong system/ not used by the manager... would you have also labeled mata a flop this season at chelsea? Or Iker? I wouldn't call them a flop because they are still talented. on the flipside, there's Torres. he is a flop because the actual talent is not there, and even more so when you consider his cost.
Kaka is just a bad investment decision. its like James Rodriguez now for £63m (lets leave shirt sales aside for a moment), thats a terrible investment decision that actually brings little value added to the team, when clearly the better player to buy would have been a Pogba for example who would have added a lot of value to the team. although you would need to differentiate between the Kaka who came to madrid and the kaka that left madrid a shadow of his former self.
Its not his fault. he is just playing his game in the wrong system. if matic was sold and you bought iniesta would iniesta become a flop? No, he just wouldnt be able to execute his game in that system. bad decision making. again the contrast with torres.
whos going AFC Members day here?
Original post by barneystin
ok. in fairness I never saw hulk at Porto. how much did you actually watch of him? I am going off Hulk of recent years, and would certainly say he is not an elite player.
Just the typical CL matches and at international level E.g. the olympics. He's not an elite player true. Tbh he's just a better version of Andros Townsend, but not fit to lick Arjen Robbens ********.
Owen cost £8m. how much did they really expect? he performed like an £8m player. and wasnt it clear that his best times were past it by that point?
His best times weren't past it. It's just that he had his contract situation and was running it down or something like that.
kaka... is this not just the mata at mou's chelsea situation... good player in the wrong system/ not used by the manager... would you have also labeled mata a flop this season at chelsea? Or Iker? I wouldn't call them a flop because they are still talented. on the flipside, there's Torres. he is a flop because the actual talent is not there, and even more so when you consider his cost.
There are other examples of big money flops. Kaka in his second stint at Milan was pretty average too. Mata wasn't a flop this season at Chelsea, he had pretty good performances when he actually did play. If anything(despite what his record suggests there) he has been a flop at United. Mata didn't seem at the forefront of everything and he was exposed plenty of times at United(3-0 loses to Liverpool and City).
Iker is overrated and has been pretty average for a good 3 years imo. Diego Lopez outperformed him and tbh they're already planning for life without him by buying Kaylor Navas.
Kaka is just a bad investment decision. its like James Rodriguez now for £63m (lets leave shirt sales aside for a moment), thats a terrible investment decision that actually brings little value added to the team, when clearly the better player to buy would have been a Pogba for example who would have added a lot of value to the team. although you would need to differentiate between the Kaka who came to madrid and the kaka that left madrid a shadow of his former self.
Kaka wasn't a bad investment decision, replacing Sneijder with Kaka in 2009 didn't seem like too bad a decision. They're similar players and Kaka clearly was the better player at the time. Just that Mourinho found a way to fit Sneijder while Pellegrini thought it was a good idea to play Kaka as a wide attacking midfielder when he's best in the centre.
Its not his fault. he is just playing his game in the wrong system. if matic was sold and you bought iniesta would iniesta become a flop? No, he just wouldnt be able to execute his game in that system. bad decision making. again the contrast with torres.
Tbh Iniesta is a complete midfielder anyway, if he played in the DM position he'd probably do decent enough as a deep lying playmaker(i.e. Wilshere's role) but I see your point.
Plus anyway Kaka hasn't been too great after leaving Madrid. A better example of flops would be Alex Song at Barca e.g. or Javier Pastore since going to PSG.
Original post by jam278
Just the typical CL matches and at international level E.g. the olympics. He's not an elite player true. Tbh he's just a better version of Andros Townsend, but not fit to lick Arjen Robbens ********.
His best times weren't past it. It's just that he had his contract situation and was running it down or something like that.
There are other examples of big money flops. Kaka in his second stint at Milan was pretty average too. Mata wasn't a flop this season at Chelsea, he had pretty good performances when he actually did play. If anything(despite what his record suggests there) he has been a flop at United. Mata didn't seem at the forefront of everything and he was exposed plenty of times at United(3-0 loses to Liverpool and City).
Iker is overrated and has been pretty average for a good 3 years imo. Diego Lopez outperformed him and tbh they're already planning for life without him by buying Kaylor Navas.
Kaka wasn't a bad investment decision, replacing Sneijder with Kaka in 2009 didn't seem like too bad a decision. They're similar players and Kaka clearly was the better player at the time. Just that Mourinho found a way to fit Sneijder while Pellegrini thought it was a good idea to play Kaka as a wide attacking midfielder when he's best in the centre.
Tbh Iniesta is a complete midfielder anyway, if he played in the DM position he'd probably do decent enough as a deep lying playmaker(i.e. Wilshere's role) but I see your point.
Plus anyway Kaka hasn't been too great after leaving Madrid. A better example of flops would be Alex Song at Barca e.g. or Javier Pastore since going to PSG.
His best times weren't past it. It's just that he had his contract situation and was running it down or something like that.
There are other examples of big money flops. Kaka in his second stint at Milan was pretty average too. Mata wasn't a flop this season at Chelsea, he had pretty good performances when he actually did play. If anything(despite what his record suggests there) he has been a flop at United. Mata didn't seem at the forefront of everything and he was exposed plenty of times at United(3-0 loses to Liverpool and City).
Iker is overrated and has been pretty average for a good 3 years imo. Diego Lopez outperformed him and tbh they're already planning for life without him by buying Kaylor Navas.
Kaka wasn't a bad investment decision, replacing Sneijder with Kaka in 2009 didn't seem like too bad a decision. They're similar players and Kaka clearly was the better player at the time. Just that Mourinho found a way to fit Sneijder while Pellegrini thought it was a good idea to play Kaka as a wide attacking midfielder when he's best in the centre.
Tbh Iniesta is a complete midfielder anyway, if he played in the DM position he'd probably do decent enough as a deep lying playmaker(i.e. Wilshere's role) but I see your point.
Plus anyway Kaka hasn't been too great after leaving Madrid. A better example of flops would be Alex Song at Barca e.g. or Javier Pastore since going to PSG.
Not surprising really, Wenger does tend to use players in systems which make them seem better than they actually are. Look at all of our players which have left. Very few have hit the heights that they hit here, with the exception of Van Persie.
Related discussions
- The Arsenal Thread XXVI
- The Arsenal Thread XXV
- What team do you support and why?
- Premier League Run In
- Premier League Predictions 2023-24
- elsie wellbeing update at the end of 2023 :)
- Im bored as hell
- The Liverpool FC Thread XVII
- Tottenham Hotspur Society II
- Is Bukayo Saka the face of the Premier League?
- Devonshire - Coach House
- Southampton offers?
- 999 call handler interview
- TSR emojis are so silly
- Does carbohydrates cause acne?
- Cambridge MASt (Part III) applicants 2023
- Best football match you saw as a child?
- Accomodation on manor park campus
- Fitzwilliam College Cambridge Offer Holders 2023
- Essex Oral Health Science
