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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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'H/t- the Jerusalem post.'

I wouldn't believe things so readily.

The report comes from the Institute for Palestine Studies, which is a well respected pan-Arab institution based in Beirut and nothing to do with Israel at all.

It's worth noting that the deaths of children in tunnelling operations relates to the tunnels dug into Egypt some years ago, not the ones (as far as the report goes anyway) dug into Israel, but that's a minor issue. Hamas themselves have admitted these deaths occurred. Apparently the children were considered 'martyrs'.

Reply 5241

MostUncivilised

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Fair point re which tunnels. Though I would not at all be surprised if they were also involved in the terror tunnels. Like in the Victorian mines, children are valued for their nimble bodies, poor perception of risk and tenedency to do what they're told

Reply 5242

MostUncivilised

Original post by Huskaris

That is absolutely disgusting, and I take it at face value, and believe it probably to be true.

I 100% believe that Hamas has been up to a lot of dirty tricks in the recent war and will continue to disregard human life.

I can not however on the one had denounce Hamas' massacring of civilians, without in the same breathe condemning the Israeli's massacring of civilians.

Both sides seem to extinguish lives very, very cheaply.

Hamas is not the cute little lamb that it would have you believe it is, but the fact that they are evil, does not somehow lessen the atrocities the Israelis have committed.

It's still the Palestinian citizens I feel most sorry for. People often say Hamas are not even democratically elected. So if you are a Palestinian citizen, you are killed by people that hate you, even though you are dictated to, and you are killed by people who you may not have even directly elected.

All very good points, though I'm unsure "massacre" is the right word for what Israel is doing. The death figures show that men aged 20-29 are the most likely to be killed by bombs, and children the least likely. That suggests that the bombing is not indiscriminate, otherwise you would see death rates that mirror the proportion of age groups and genders in the Palestinian population.

Also, I do believe Hamas to be an evil organisation. Like the photo above shows, they are gangsters, they murder men for their sexuality and lool the other way when women are murdered for reasons of "honour". They use children and civilians as a weapon against Israel, whereas Israel does the opposite.

I don't agree with the occupation or the settlements, I want to see a peace deal. But I also can't stand idly by while some elements shriek about "genocide" (ludicrous, Israel has killed 10,000 Palestinians in 50 years. They treat Arabs in their own borders with respect and full civil rights. Even to this day, they send truckloads of food aid into Gaza, whilst the Gaza strip has 5 star hotels making wedding cakes so big they have to be cut with a crane. The idea that it is genocide is preposterous, and anyone who has read about real examples likr the Cambodian genocide, or Holodomor, or the Holocaust, orfamines and sieges like the Siege of Leningrad , know this is nothing of the sort).

I'm also very suspicious of people who rise up when they see Jews killing Muslims at the level of 1500 or so, but are hauntingly silent when ISIS kills 5000 etc. It suggests deep hypocrisy

Reply 5243

Huskaris

Original post by MostUncivilised

I also ponder this, do you think (as I do) that it might be because we actually don't expect Muslim nations/factions to have any real standards, Israel on the other hand is basically a Western democracy dropped in the Middle East, and as such we expect higher standards from them?

I think that's probably it to be honest, and it doesn't make it right at all, but I just think we don't expect anything of Muslim nations. They've killed each other over nothing for thousands of years and they will continue to do so for thousands more, because a book means more to them than other lives.

Reply 5244

Jammy Duel

Original post by MostUncivilised

I wouldn't say it's that surprising. If you think about it, if you're family is at a a UN shelter (or other designated safe zone), who is the most likely person to be leaving for whatever reason? You aren't going to send out the children, nor the old (nor the women as much). So it leaves the men that are, say, 18-45. Then consider that the younger in that group are probably more likely to be stupid and/or daring (and/or fighting) and suddenly you expect that to be larger than a fool might expect.

Also if the old, due to experience, and young as they're taken with the old get to 'safe' areas relatively quickly they're less likely to die. Israel is quite stupid enough to blatantly target designated safe zones (clearly hospitals are excluded from that.

Doesn't mean that the attacks were totally indiscriminate/wise. Especially early on, looking at the targets it's as if the top brass of the IDF are idiots or naive. They attack civilian structures because that's where the top brass of Hamas live. As if they will still be there. As if it has any real impact on them, they will just evict somebody else (so, really, they're attacking the civilians there thinking about it). And the probability of civilian collateral is high.

Their choices of weapons/methods are hardly indiscriminate either. They like showing footage of just how accurate their missiles are, but completely omit how inaccurate the shells are from their propaganda reels. They may not have an infinite pot of cash, but with the amount they spend (and the US gives them) on their military they should be able to afford to take the moral high ground and use more discriminate weapons. They also seem to like going a bit overkill and using a tank shell when a bullet would be better.

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Reply 5245

tsr1269

Original post by UniOfLife

Yes I made a mistake.

Who knew it? :rolleyes:

Reply 5246

broscience123

Israel Recruited Students To Fight In Gaza War By Promising FREE University Tutition

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-universities-lend-support-gaza-massacre

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 5247

broscience123

This must be a Zionist's wet dream, literally getting paid to kill Arabs.

Reply 5248

TommeDeSavoie

Original post by broscience123

This must be a Zionist's wet dream, literally getting paid to kill Arabs.

Most armed services offer something like this, I'm not sure if it's a recruitment strategy per say, but something employed to allow reintegration into society after the conflict.

The British army does the same not with university but with things like pluming and other college related courses in anything really.

However in the case of this blog it is saying that it's the universities offering the free tuition, I'd hardly risk my life in a pointless conflict over a free degree or plumbing qualification. It's hardly a great recruitment strategy.

The best recruitment strategy is nationalism, stupid people believe in it and are willing to give their life for the primitive idea of the nation state. Israeli people are probably joining the army due to nationalism and the same for Hamas and ISIS. I firmly believe it is nationalism that is the main contributor to many of these pointless wars that we face (nationalism not patriotism, as in the idea of protecting ones 'nation').

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_state

EDIT: I would quote other sources other than Wikipedia but you are not going to read a thesis the size of a book because of my forum post.

EDIT2: it is for the reason of nationalism that Hamas need to stop firing rockets because then there will no longer be a Israeli casus belli on Palestine, nationalism won't have a justification for attacking Palestine

So the conflict would stop but not the land dispute

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 5249

Studentus-anonymous

Have to agree, this is a common benefit offered to prospective recruits, because it is something tangible and beneficial for any potential soldier after they leave the military.

it's just incidental that Israel sends it's soldiers to brutalise civilians.

Though I am sure there's a culture of Arab-hating in the IDF, due to various reasons (it's terrorist origins, the general racial divide between Israeli's and Palestinians, the religious element, etc), which thrive in the macho conservative military tradition.

Reply 5250

UniOfLife

Original post by broscience123

Israel Recruited Students To Fight In Gaza War By Promising FREE University Tutition

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-universities-lend-support-gaza-massacre

To Mods: Please do not merge this topic into the main sticky. This is a thread specifically about the recruitment methods utilised by the terrorist organisation.

Israelis are conscripted into the army. From your own source:

Meanwhile, Tel Aviv University announced that it would be providing students called up to serve in Gaza one year’s free tuition

So er it turns out that your title is entirely wrong. Israel is not recruiting students and it is not Israel offering to cover tuition fees.

But yeah, I mean, truth isn't the important part. Let's just bash Israel more because er...Israel?

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 5251

Alumna

Words of the world chan

IMG-20140811-WA000.jpg62.1KB

Reply 5252

well in the dark

Israeli wears T-shirt that reads “Deployed - Destroyed - Enjoyed - Gaza 2014”

Also:
[h="1"]Young Israeli at Western Wall calls for ‘another war and another war and another war and another war’[/h]

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 5253

well in the dark

Israeli Soldiers Celebrate Shooting an 18-year-old In Hebron, not Gaza. Scum.

Reply 5254

mightyfrog2_10

Original post by well in the dark

Israeli Soldiers Celebrate Shooting an 18-year-old In Hebron, not Gaza. Scum.

bastards.

Reply 5255

well in the dark

[h="1"]A 'self-hating' Jew's guide to answering Zionist talking points[/h]This is a good piece. Would be interested to hear what the pro-Israelis on this thread have to say to it, if anything.

Reply 5256

UniOfLife

Original post by well in the dark

[h="1"]A 'self-hating' Jew's guide to answering Zionist talking points[/h]This is a good piece. Would be interested to hear what the pro-Israelis on this thread have to say to it, if anything.

Here's point by point:

1. Zionism is the notion that (a) Jews form a national group and (b) national groups have the right to self determination if they so desire. Zionism is no different in that regard to the Palestinians wanting their own state or Scottish people wanting to be independent from the rest of the UK.

2. I don't think very many people disagree with what he says. Of course other people lived in the area that is now Israel before the Mandate started. But this does not preclude the very long standing connection between the Jewish nation and the land of Israel.

3. Herzl absolutely did not envisage a Jewish only country. That is a demonstrable falsehood, just read his writings, particularly Altneuland. The mass immigration of Jews to the land of Israel whilst superficially sharing some similarities to colonialism is also inherently different in two crucial regards that make it entirely different. Firstly, the Jews were returning to a land with which they had a long-standing connection. A connection going back to before the Greeks and Romans and well before Islam. Secondly, the Jews were moving there not as citizens of a country that was sending them there but as independent people separate from their host country. Colonialism was all about one country transferring its citizens to another land in order to take over that land. Zionism is not colonialism.

4. The British absolutely did not encourage Jewish immigration to Mandate Palestine. Indeed, right on the even of WW2 in 1939 they placed strict limits on Jewish immigration and even after the Holocaust refused to expand the quote of 15,000 per year even though hundreds of thousands of Jews were stranded in DP camps in Europe desperate to move to the Mandate.

5. The two state solution has been accepted by every major group everywhere. Both the Israelis and Palestinians want it. The Quartet of the US, EU, Russia and UN. The Arab peace proposal calls for it. So if it is racist then the entire world is racist. Moreover, the two state solution does not include plans for a two-way population transfer. The 1.5 million or more Arab citizens of Israel will remain in Israel and therefore it cannot be a racist venture to have a Jewish only state.

6. The One-State solution is akin to demanding that Scotland remain forever part of the UK whether they like it or not. It has been rejected by every major group - see point 5 - in the International Community. It is also a bad idea in that it will inevitably lead to civil war and, after significant loss of life, two states.

7. The principle of two states along 1967 borders has been accepted in Israel since at least 1994. The existence of Settlements in the West Bank whilst wrong and in my opinion difficult to defend, does not make a two-state solution difficult. The vast majority of settlers live within a mile or so of the border and 75% of them (or so) live within an area contiguous with Israel of just 6% or so of the West Bank. Moreover, Israel has shown its willnigness to remove settlers by force (as in Gaza in 2005). And finally, since 2000 only 1 new settlement has been constructed. There has been expansion of existing settlements but not construction of new ones in new areas. The idea that settlements preclude two states is a convenient myth.

8. Neither Fatah nor Hamas have democratic legitimacy as both are corrupt and, at this point, effectively unelected. When the PA holds parliamentary and presidential elections then we will know which is representative and has legitimacy.

9. I don't disagree with this point - nor do many people. He is saying what Israelis say which is that Hamas are the bad guys who are opposed by Arab states as well. It is very worth noting that Egypt is strongly opposed to Hamas. This despite Egypt having been at war with Israel for a long time. Their own experience with the Muslim Brotherhood of which Hamas is an offshoot has demonstrated to them the dangers of Hamas.

10. Nobody disputes this - it is a simple matter of fact. The "unity government" has been tried before and it didn't last long that time.

11. The Israeli government - and most governments around the world including the US, EU and UK - consider Hamas to be a terrorist organisation and nobody sensible denies its commitment to Israel's complete destruction. In that context it is entirely reasonable for Israel to refuse to negotiate peace with a unity government that includes Hamas. The Palestinians are entitled to choose whoever they want to represent them (though note that no elections have taken place for 8 years) but their choices come with consequences.

12. The kidnapping of three Jewish teenagers sparked a massive Israeli operation to try and find them which included the arrest of hundreds of Hamas members and others in order to find the kidnappers. This is all that would have happened had terrorist groups in Gaza not started firing rockets into Israel. The notion that Israel's arrests in the West Bank was on a pretext presupposes that Israel did not really care about the kidnapped teens which is a position that can only be taken if you presuppose that Israel is basically evil.

13. Gaza is not occupied it is the subject of a military blockade. Large areas of the West Bank are in Area A where the PA has complete internal control. Even if we grant Hamas the right to resist occupation this does not grant the right to fire rockets at civilian areas with the aim of killing civilians. That is demonstrably terrorism and illegal.

14. That the author declares that Israel has no right to defend itself against Hamas rockets shows his position is untenable and not really worth anything. Moreover, his dismissal of Hamas terrorism on the basis of its ineffectiveness is likewise illogical. If someone tries repeatedly to kill you and you kill him instead in self defence, you do not become the bad guy because of his incompetence.

15. This is patently nonsense. In his previous point he noted that the UN is housing over 100,000 Palestinians yet here he claims that they have nowhere to go. Clearly warning someone to leave their house before it is hit by a missile is very worthwhile as it gives the residents a chance to leave and avoid dying. That he says "they have nowhere to go" is patently ludicrous.

16. Hamas have themselves admitted - nay proudly declared - their use of human shields. There are plenty of open spaces in Gaza where Hamas could build military facilities to stockpile weapons away from civilian areas. Anyone who knows anything about Gaza know this. The notion that Israel uses human shields because its soldiers live in Israel is ridiculous nonsense. Moreover, it is a mockery - as if the terrorists would refrain from one second from targeting Israeli soldiers for fear of killing Israeli civilians. They target those civilians in the first place!

17. No one makes this assertion. Hamas have tried to murder as many Israelis as they can. Fortunately they fail in their attempts. How this shows that Israel considers an Israeli life as more valuable I do not know. Moreover, in the deal between Hamas and Israel over the release of Gilad Shalit Israel had to release 1,000 Palestinians for 1 Israeli. Obviously Israel would want to release as few as possible but Hamas would not accept fewer than 1,000 Palestinians for 1 Israeli. So that shows that Hamas value their people as worth much less than an Israeli. If Hamas were as desperate to get back every Palestinian as Israel is to get back every Israeli then the deal would have been closer to 1 for 1.

18. In many ways he is correct here. Israel should do more to end the occupation. In 2005 they took a massive step in that direction by withdrawing completely and unconditionally from Gaza with no blockade. Hamas' takeover of the strip has made it now almost impossible for a unilateral withdrawal from the West Bank. Moreover, isolating Israel will only lead to unilateral action if successful which will not be in the interests of the Palestinians.

19. The authors claims about colonialism have been addressed in point 3 above. It is good that many Jews worry about Israel's actions and campaign against them. It is sad that many cannot do so without falsehoods and strange and untenable claims as this author has unfortunately done. The vast majority of Jews who think about it - even those who staunchly support Israel - spend time worrying about how to solve the current situation in a moral way. The author does not hold a monopoly on morality.

I hope this suffices to address his issues. It took a long time and I don't intend to enter long discussions on every point. I conclude that the author is right on a small number of issues, ignorant on others and plain wrong on the rest.

Reply 5257

MostUncivilised

Original post by Jammy Duel

Especially early on, looking at the targets it's as if the top brass of the IDF are idiots or naive

Yup, the top brass of the IDF are naive idiots. That's why they've won every single conflict they've had with the Arabs. That's why Israel is the most militarily powerful state in the Middle East today. That's why they manage to convince thousands of Arabs to turn their backs on their families, their community, their nation, and work for the Jews. It's because they're "naive idiots".

And of course, Hamas are military geniuses. That's why the Palestinian people have no state. It's because they're geniuses. Am I right?

Reply 5258

MostUncivilised

Original post by UniOfLife

Superb post mate. The fact that the Islamo-fascists and ISIS supporters feel the need to avoid actually responding to you, and instead simply claiming they "won" the debate, speaks volumes about the quality of your posts and the absolute garbage that constitutes theirs

Reply 5259

mxcvii

Original post by MostUncivilised

What on earth are you talking about? The fact you don't even respond to his post, you just go around bragging about your "win" shows you're afraid to debate him.

You lost that debate, and the fact you feel the need to parade around claiming you "won" reflects more on your personality than you could ever understand.

It's a bit like being a lady; if you have to say you are one, you're not.