Law degrees and being a lawyer is 100% overrated

For what it's worth I went to an extremely low ranked university - the lowest of the low, almost, and I managed to get plenty of mini-pupillages at commercial and chancery sets, including 'magic circle' sets. I haven't applied for pupillage yet. One of my classmates has a TC at Herbert Smith, despite getting a low 2:1 so certainly possible to get into a good commercial firm, even from an ill-reputed institution.

Reply 24

Original post by alevelzzz

Unless you're a top top student.

Discuss.

EDIT: Unless you go to one of the top 5 unis, chances are you're not going to land a top job paying a 'lawyer's' salary.
Also, very long hours, a lot of cases are incredibly boring.

Well since I know of people who got ABB/AAB at A-level (which is enough for law firms) went to Top 25 law schools and ended up at very big law firms, I would have to disagree with you.

Grades will just get you through the door. Ensure that you aren't binned at the first stage. After that it depends solely on you and how you perform at interviews.

I can recall a Trainee Solicitor at a top firm telling me how a cambridge student was rejected but 4 'lesser university' students got jobs because they performed better at interviews.

Yes grades are very important for law. If you have below BBB at a-level I really wouldn't bother, but grades will NOT get you a training contract.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 25

Original post by Forum User

For what it's worth I went to an extremely low ranked university - the lowest of the low, almost, and I managed to get plenty of mini-pupillages at commercial and chancery sets, including 'magic circle' sets. I haven't applied for pupillage yet. One of my classmates has a TC at Herbert Smith, despite getting a low 2:1 so certainly possible to get into a good commercial firm, even from an ill-reputed institution.

Wow thats great. Did he get a TC recently?

oh and what university if you don't mind telling?

Reply 26

Original post by SmaugTheTerrible

Wow thats great. Did he get a TC recently?

oh and what university if you don't mind telling?

BPP, and she got it during her second year (when she was averaging mid 2:2 grades).

Obviously I am not saying that people should deliberately go to low-ranked unis, or that it's easy to get a TC if you do, just an illustration to show that it is possible.

Reply 27

Original post by Forum User

BPP, and she got it during her second year (when she was averaging mid 2:2 grades).

Obviously I am not saying that people should deliberately go to low-ranked unis, or that it's easy to get a TC if you do, just an illustration to show that it is possible.

Thats a great achievement. Was this a few years back or within the last 1/2 years?

Reply 28

Original post by SmaugTheTerrible

Thats a great achievement. Was this a few years back or within the last 1/2 years?

It's a 2015 training contract which she got offered last year, so she's doing the LPC starting next month (sometime around then, anyway).

Reply 29

ImagineCats

Original post by squeakysquirrel

There is no guarantee of success at the end of it - so it is all very overrated

Isn't that the same with any other degree/career?

Reply 30

ChaoticButterfly

20

From my limited understanding law sounds awful.

Reply 31

Original post by Forum User

It's a 2015 training contract which she got offered last year, so she's doing the LPC starting next month (sometime around then, anyway).

Gives me some hope. Thanks.
But don't herbert smith have A-level filters, did she meet those?

Reply 32

Birkenhead

Original post by Forum User

For what it's worth I went to an extremely low ranked university - the lowest of the low, almost, and I managed to get plenty of mini-pupillages at commercial and chancery sets, including 'magic circle' sets. I haven't applied for pupillage yet. One of my classmates has a TC at Herbert Smith, despite getting a low 2:1 so certainly possible to get into a good commercial firm, even from an ill-reputed institution.

From BPP? Did you get the highest mark in your year, or rescue someone on death row? Oxbridge students are having trouble getting minis at commercial sets, and I just find it hard to believe that you and your friend could have had such success, especially when she got a low 2:1.

Reply 33

Sanctimonious

Prestige don't mean **** in most cases. You're living a lie you've been told by the misinformed politicians who still believe that nonsense. There are companies out there these days who won't even touch graduates of the top universities because they would rather them from lower Russell Group universities or slightly lower because they tend to be more rounded individuals that can be brought into the way the company works.

The only place prestige really matters is going into research and gaining a place at a top university to do it. In industry, what's more important as pointed out earlier is networking and contacts, what you can actually do and offer apart from the job duties expected as part of your standard employment etc because companies want versatile and flexible employees who will jump through holes for them - that's what makes them money - not people who go 'but that's not in my job description' all the time etc.

It's all about you as an individual and not your university. Yes it may slightly impress them that you went to Oxford or whatever but it won't be the deciding factor for most. What you say, do and act in interview and assessment and on the job if you have a training contract will be the deciding factor.

http://www.cherwell.org/news/oxford/2012/02/23/more-oxford-graduates-are-waiters-than-engineers

The guy in this article seems pretty switched on.

Oliver Moody, a journalist who graduated last year from St Anne’s, said, “I think it is easier for Oxford students to find jobs - as long as they focus. If you know what you want to do, build up a half-decent CV and think hard about where you want to go after university. You can make an Oxford degree work for you.”

However he continued, “There were a lot of people who just assumed that an Oxford degree would magi*cally confer a perfect, well-paid job without any real effort or thought. They didn’t do so well. There are a lot of hungry, focused students at less prestigious universities who are serious competitors in the market*place, and, as employers are increas*ingly looking for the finished article, they have the edge over Oxford stu*dents who don’t get around to look*ing beyond university.

He added, “Of my friends from Oxford, about half have just started white-collar professional jobs, and the other half are still living with their parents.”

Reply 34

Sanctimonious

Original post by Birkenhead

From BPP? Did you get the highest mark in your year, or rescue someone on death row? Oxbridge students are having trouble getting minis at commercial sets, and I just find it hard to believe that you and your friend could have had such success, especially when she got a low 2:1.

Because prestige is becoming less and less important by the day. One of my good friends just graduated from London Met and is now working with one of the biggest financial firms in the world.

Reply 35

Dr Alcoholic

14

TBH for most becoming a lawyer/solicitor or even a barrister is pretty ****. Getting a training contract seems to be hard as **** these days and many with LLBs and indeed LPCs are having to settle for legal assistant/admin jobs at a law firm on the off chance it will lead to a training contract. On top of that legal aid has been cut so smaller firms which make up the bulk of employment are reluctant to take on new staff. And then when you do finally find a firm that will take you on, you'll be getting paid barely enough to live on.

Law grads don't seem to get a break these days, unless you are either an oxbridge grad with a 1st or have contacts. What makes it worse is many of these people with contacts don't even do a law degree and will do something arguably easier then do the GDL because they are pretty much guaranteed a training contract at a family firm or know someone in a city firm etc.

When you do finally make it though, the rewards can be pretty sweet. Glad I didn't pick law as a profession though.

Reply 36

Original post by Birkenhead

From BPP? Did you get the highest mark in your year, or rescue someone on death row? Oxbridge students are having trouble getting minis at commercial sets, and I just find it hard to believe that you and your friend could have had such success, especially when she got a low 2:1.

I got the highest mark in my year, but didn't save anyone on death row. I find it hard to believe that someone with decent marks from Ox/Cam and some kind of reasonable cover letter and interest in the bar would have difficulty getting minis. Looking at my list of chambers, I was offered minis at about 50% of the sets I applied to, which were all commercial / chancery / tax. Perhaps some of the other 50% just threw my application in the bin when they saw BPP, which would never happen to an Oxbridge applicant. There was no particular pattern in which sets accepted me - I got One Essex Court which is my 'dream set', but didn't get in at several sets which most would consider 'lower-ranked'. For what it's worth I have zero 'contacts', I applied for all my minis in the usual way without knowing anyone at any of the sets.

I can't really speak for my friend, I know she applied to dozens of firms before getting an offer but not the exact numbers. I think Herbert Smith was her only offer. As I said she was applying when on course for a 2:2, so again probably the application went straight into the bin at a fair chunk of firms. There was no difference between a low 2:1 and a First for her, in the sense that keeping her TC place was just conditional on her getting at least a 2:1 (plus whatever she has to do on the LPC).

Hopefully it's obvious to those reading the thread but I am absolutely not saying that the university you attend doesn't matter, or even that it's worth attending a low-ranked uni to do law. My friend has done well (and I hope I will), but most won't. I don't agree with those saying prestige doesn't matter; or that university reputation is getting less and less important by the day. I got rejected from the Oxford BCL which I really wanted to do and am sure if I'd gone to a decent uni I would have been offered a place.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 37

Birkenhead

Original post by Sanctimonious

Because prestige is becoming less and less important by the day. One of my good friends just graduated from London Met and is now working with one of the biggest financial firms in the world.

You clearly know very little about the world today if you believe that where you went to university does not have great influence over your chances in many industries. Nowhere is this more true than in the legal world, in fact it is becoming more important. Twenty years ago Kent and Newcastle law grads had no problem getting pupillage with 2:1s; the Bar was expanding. Today, the Bar is shrinking and the only thing fast expanding is the number of people going to university. Since there are so many hopefuls and so few interview spaces, a large number are rejected before having the opportunity to get to the interview in the first place, and with all of the serious applicants of this annual deluge of wannabe barristers and solicitors having 2:1s and 1sts, one of the most useful differentiating factors is where they obtained their degree: a 2:1 from UCL or Bristol is more impressive than a 2:1 from BPP or London Met. It doesn't take more than common sense to appreciate all this, but you're more than welcome to look at the Alma maters of recent recruits at firms and chambers to see the patterns. I do not believe for a minute that this friend graduating from London Met now works for one of the biggest financial firms in the world; if he did he possessed impressive qualifications or achievements that you are conveniently omitting.

University prestige does matter in many areas; it certainly does in law and is becoming more of a factor by the day. Those that say otherwise are either badly misinformed or in denial of the fact that their university will not open as andy doors as others.

Reply 38

somethingunique

12

Original post by Sanctimonious

Because prestige is becoming less and less important by the day. One of my good friends just graduated from London Met and is now working with one of the biggest financial firms in the world.

Wow which one? Did she have a lot of experience?

Reply 39

Sanctimonious