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Are Oxford and Cambridge the only UK universities that matter?

Just to point something out about University of Manchester, without it we wouldn't have computers, nuclear energy, or have won world war 2 thanks to Alan Turing cracking Axis codes, not to mention the university has a world famous radio telescope. How can anyone claim that Oxbridge universities are more important when all they contribute is the next generation of the upper class? Clearly other universities matter more because they are open to a wider range of people, if Manchester is so bad why do people travel from across the world to study there? Apart from that, how far a graduate goes depends on their ability not JUST the 'quality' of the university.

Reply 161

mrkl

12

More hype ? Where does it say Turing was educated at Manc ?

Really think a guy from Sherborne wold go to Manc, I don't think so :biggrin:

Alan Turing Education:

Princeton University (1936–1938)

[URL="https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&hs=Bkj&rls=org.mozilla:en-US[excludedFace]redface[/excludedFace]fficial&channel=sb&biw=1024&bih=639&q=king%27s+college+cambridge&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDAy8HsxKnfq6-gaFxXnbl6Rj-_H6TBF-Wh1_5Nk9atsr5dc9uAEZ9UrsqAAAA&sa=X&ei=QzrzU-aIFobQ7Aar0IDAAg&ved=0CCMQvBsoAjAA"]King's College, Cambridge (1931–1934)

[URL="https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&hs=Bkj&rls=org.mozilla:en-US[excludedFace]redface[/excludedFace]fficial&channel=sb&biw=1024&bih=639&q=sherborne+school&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDAy8HsxKnfq6-gbFhXm75s6vvWjj4-O-Hv-iu6rbXvTKDaTMDAAtCpqEqAAAA&sa=X&ei=QzrzU-aIFobQ7Aar0IDAAg&ved=0CCUQvBsoBDAA"]Sherborne School
[URL="https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&hs=Bkj&rls=org.mozilla:en-US[excludedFace]redface[/excludedFace]fficial&channel=sb&biw=1024&bih=639&q=st+michael%27s+school&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAAErANT_AHvTx-gAAAAOCAMiCi9tLzBsX3JkambzmfizuHQH0L238TKF0aZaPgG2LY-6i6ErAAAA&sa=X&ei=QzrzU-aIFobQ7Aar0IDAAg&ved=0CCcQvBsoBjAA"]St. Michael's School
[URL="https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&hs=Bkj&rls=org.mozilla:en-US[excludedFace]redface[/excludedFace]fficial&channel=sb&biw=1024&bih=639&q=institute+for+advanced+study&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDAy8HsxKnfq6-gaGlSXyRxQ_GpMWhLutNPyyKVpvsdZrJ71IaAOI_jNkqAAAA&sa=X&ei=QzrzU-aIFobQ7Aar0IDAAg&ved=0CCkQvBsoCDAA"]Institute for Advanced Study

Reply 162

Liam_OBrien_

Original post by mrkl

More hype ? Where does it say Turing was educated at Manc ?

Really think a guy from Sherborne wold go to Manc, I don't think so :biggrin:

Alan Turing Education:

Princeton University (1936–1938)

[URL="https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&hs=Bkj&rls=org.mozilla:en-US[excludedFace]redface[/excludedFace]fficial&channel=sb&biw=1024&bih=639&q=king%27s+college+cambridge&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDAy8HsxKnfq6-gaFxXnbl6Rj-_H6TBF-Wh1_5Nk9atsr5dc9uAEZ9UrsqAAAA&sa=X&ei=QzrzU-aIFobQ7Aar0IDAAg&ved=0CCMQvBsoAjAA"]King's College, Cambridge

(1931–1934)

[URL="https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&hs=Bkj&rls=org.mozilla:en-US[excludedFace]redface[/excludedFace]fficial&channel=sb&biw=1024&bih=639&q=sherborne+school&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDAy8HsxKnfq6-gbFhXm75s6vvWjj4-O-Hv-iu6rbXvTKDaTMDAAtCpqEqAAAA&sa=X&ei=QzrzU-aIFobQ7Aar0IDAAg&ved=0CCUQvBsoBDAA"]Sherborne School
[URL="https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&hs=Bkj&rls=org.mozilla:en-US[excludedFace]redface[/excludedFace]fficial&channel=sb&biw=1024&bih=639&q=st+michael%27s+school&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAAErANT_AHvTx-gAAAAOCAMiCi9tLzBsX3JkambzmfizuHQH0L238TKF0aZaPgG2LY-6i6ErAAAA&sa=X&ei=QzrzU-aIFobQ7Aar0IDAAg&ved=0CCcQvBsoBjAA"]St. Michael's School
[URL="https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&hs=Bkj&rls=org.mozilla:en-US[excludedFace]redface[/excludedFace]fficial&channel=sb&biw=1024&bih=639&q=institute+for+advanced+study&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAGOovnz8BQMDAy8HsxKnfq6-gaGlSXyRxQ_GpMWhLutNPyyKVpvsdZrJ71IaAOI_jNkqAAAA&sa=X&ei=QzrzU-aIFobQ7Aar0IDAAg&ved=0CCkQvBsoCDAA"]Institute for Advanced Study

I didn't say he studied there did I? I said thanks to the university he was able to do his work, you should probably read EVERY word before replying

Reply 163

Mackay

17

This thread's question sums up what is the matter with people on TSR.

Reply 164

HarrietGilbraith

8

No. Different universities are regarded differently by different industries because of what they specialise in. So people looking for a graduate specialising in media would look to universities that specialise in media more approvingly tan universities that specialise in maths, because they are from that industry.

Reply 165

Noble.

17

Original post by RD208

No, and I'd actually go as far to say that some of their graduates are less employable than those from other universities.

Of course some are less employable, that's hardly controversial.

Reply 166

mrkl

12

I hope you are not implying that Manc was responsible for his WW2 code breaking work ?

That would be an incredible feat since he only worked at Manc AFTER the war.

Princeton and Cambridge are responsible for giving him the skills to do that, NOTHING to do with Manchester.

This needs to be said otherwise it could be very misleading. I hope that is not your intent

Original post by Liam_OBrien_

I didn't say he studied there did I? I said thanks to the university he was able to do his work, you should probably read EVERY word before replying

Reply 167

mrkl

12

Still won't change the fact that Alan Turing never studied at Manc despite the attempts to imply that he did.

I must be doing something right despite some people's hatred for the truth since I just got a couple of reps for restoring Turing's true reputation.

Haha indeed

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 168

Frank the Tankk

12

Alan Turing was Reader in the Mathematics dept. of Manchester in 1948 and was appointed Deputy Director of the Computing Laboratory...writing software for the one of the first true computers, the Manchester Ferranti Mk 1.

Yes.

/thread

No, Cambridge and Imperial are the only UK universities that matter.

Oxford's time has been over for some good 10 years atleast

Reply 171

mrkl

12

Original post by newblood

Oxford's time has been over for some good 10 years atleast

How do you come to this conclusion ?

Reply 172

ChemistBoy

16

No university is good at everything and that includes Oxford and Cambridge. For example, if I were to start a course in engineering I would pick Imperial over either Oxbridge university.

Reply 173

Copperknickers

15

Original post by Anonynous

Relative to the rest of the world, I would say yes.

On a world stage you could include LSE and arguably UCL but other than that.. the other institutions don't hold nearly as much clout.

KCL is 16th in the world. The top 10 British universities are easily the best in Europe, apart from a couple of the Swiss ones a degree from any one of them would be more highly regarded than the best university of another European country.

Reply 174

ChemistBoy

16

Original post by Copperknickers

KCL is 16th in the world. The top 10 British universities are easily the best in Europe, apart from a couple of the Swiss ones a degree from any one of them would be more highly regarded than the best university of another European country.

I would humbly suggest that attendees at the Max Planck Institutes in Germany or the Grand Ecoles in France would strongly disagree with that assessment. As I expect would attendees at the Karolinska Institute or Chalmers University in Sweden. I could go on.

It is a very anglophone thing to assume that our universities are far better than the rest of Europe, and to use clearly anglophone biased league tables to support this idea. However, working in the European research scene as I do, this simply doesn't stack up with reality.

Reply 175

Copperknickers

15

Original post by ChemistBoy

I would humbly suggest that attendees at the Max Planck Institutes in Germany or the Grand Ecoles in France would strongly disagree with that assessment. As I expect would attendees at the Karolinska Institute or Chalmers University in Sweden. I could go on.

You can go on as long as you want, but most international rankings will prove you wrong I'm afraid.

It is a very anglophone thing to assume that our universities are far better than the rest of Europe, and to use clearly anglophone biased league tables to support this idea. However, working in the European research scene as I do, this simply doesn't stack up with reality.

I'm afraid most research is done in English. You can't have a good international reputation if half of your papers are published in Swedish or French, nobody in America or Asia or the UK will be able to read it, and those are the countries that matter.

Reply 176

Chief Wiggum

20

Original post by ChemistBoy

No university is good at everything and that includes Oxford and Cambridge. For example, if I were to start a course in engineering I would pick Imperial over either Oxbridge university.

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/university-subject-rankings/2014/engineering-mechanical#sorting=rank+region=+country=+faculty=+stars=false+search=

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013-14/subject-ranking/subject/engineering-and-IT

http://www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2014/jun/03/university-guide-2015-league-table-for-general-engineering

Yeah, Cambridge does seem poor relative to Imperial at Engineering...

Reply 177

Incubator

20

Original post by Oz_Vessalius

According to this - http://www.topuniversities.com/student-info/careers-advice/best-universities-according-employers - Imperial, LSE, and Manchester are up there too. I'd say UCL is pretty well regarded globally too.

But no matter how good other UK universities are, most foreigners will never have heard of many beyond the top few.

I reckon Manchester is world class! It's getting better by the day.

Reply 178

Incubator

20

Original post by Liam_OBrien_

Just to point something out about University of Manchester, without it we wouldn't have computers, nuclear energy, or have won world war 2 thanks to Alan Turing cracking Axis codes, not to mention the university has a world famous radio telescope. How can anyone claim that Oxbridge universities are more important when all they contribute is the next generation of the upper class? Clearly other universities matter more because they are open to a wider range of people, if Manchester is so bad why do people travel from across the world to study there? Apart from that, how far a graduate goes depends on their ability not JUST the 'quality' of the university.

Or Graphene :wink:

Reply 179

ChemistBoy

16

Original post by Copperknickers

You can go on as long as you want, but most international rankings will prove you wrong I'm afraid.

International rankings that have a clear bias towards anglophone universities that follow the British/American structure - this is because the rankings (such as the QS) consistently undervalue research output and over-value 'fluff' and opinion (such as the academic peer review which has a ridiculously high weighting and is riddled with selection bias as if you ask lots of Americans where the best universities are they will tell you that they are in America!). Other items, such as 'faculty to student ratio' don't account for the different structures in other university systems, such as the German system which is organised by professoriat and so many teaching academics are ignored.

As I actually work in research I prefer to look at real output and results and draw my own conclusions for that. My conclusion, as an expert, is that there are many top quality European universities producing excellent world class research and you ignore them at your peril.

I'm afraid most research is done in English. You can't have a good international reputation if half of your papers are published in Swedish or French, nobody in America or Asia or the UK will be able to read it, and those are the countries that matter.

Thank you for missing the point as all the institutions that I have talked about all regularly publish their research in leading English language journals. That isn't the point. The point is that to ignore countries like Germany - with a huge industrial & engineering base and research profile to match simply because they don't speak English is utterly ridiculous. For example, the Frauenhofer institues in Germany, TNO in the Netherlands or SINTEF in Norway are world class research institutes that specialise in commericialisation of technology - they are far better at this than anything in the UK or US.

Are Oxford and Cambridge the only UK universities that matter?

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