Russia and explaining the current events

OP

Original post by Tempest II

Excuse me chap. Would you say Russia is a shining light for human rights? It is corrupt! Although still better than it was under the Marxist thugs. The West may not be perfect but I'd prefer to live here than anywhere else on the globe.

Of course it's corrupt, I never said it's the shining light of the world but so is the west.
The NSA/GCHQ spying on its citizens
Bradley manning/Julian assange and Edward snowden.
Starting wars in the Middle East and killing thousands of people
Drones and kill lists
The guardian targeted during the snowden affair
Etc...

I'm not telling you that you should go and live there all I'm saying is that Russia is being compared to nazi Germany which it's not and Putin isn't hitler, I'm just saying maybe we should understand them first without simply trusting the media and government and rushing into a war with them

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Reply 3

Aj12

18

Original post by Anonymous263

Of course it's corrupt, I never said it's the shining light of the world but so is the west.
The NSA/GCHQ spying on its citizens
Bradley manning/Julian assange and Edward snowden.
Starting wars in the Middle East and killing thousands of people
Drones and kill lists
The guardian targeted during the snowden affair
Etc...

I'm not telling you that you should go and live there all I'm saying is that Russia is being compared to nazi Germany which it's not and Putin isn't hitler, I'm just saying maybe we should understand them first without simply trusting the media and government and rushing into a war with them

Posted from TSR Mobile

I don't think anyone is seriously considering going to war with Russia. Whilst Putin is not Hitler he oversees an incredibly corrupt regime that engages in some incredibly concerning practises.

Reply 4

OP

Original post by Aj12

I don't think anyone is seriously considering going to war with Russia. Whilst Putin is not Hitler he oversees an incredibly corrupt regime that engages in some incredibly concerning practises.

True my point is that so are our governments :P it's kinda shameful what we have done since ww2 especially in recent decades

Posted from TSR Mobile

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 5

uberteknik

Original post by Anonymous263

True my point is that so are our governments :P it's kinda shameful what we have done since ww2 especially in recent decades

Posted from TSR Mobile

Making poorly thought through decisions and acting on them is inexcusable and the West can hold it's hands up at these mistakes.

However, the trouble with Putin is that he lacks any form of trust by rest of the world. His ideas (demonstrated through actions) are not that of a democracy but far closer to restrained fascism and hence his comparison by some with Hitler.

There are many more people in Russia who do not/cannot speak out against him for fear of being silenced forever.

A little known law was passed a couple of weeks ago by Putin. It means that all persons in Russia with a social media following of over 3000, must now register themselves with the authorities; including such things as tweeting, blogging etc. This is a rather Draconian measure designed to curtail free speech and information flow.

For sure the West makes mistakes. But that does not mean we should roll over and let Putin trample on anything or anyone he pleases.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 6

reciproversexclu

9

Original post by Anonymous263

There seems to be a lot of misinformation and demonisation and I would even go so far as to say Russophobia in some cases going on in western media which many of us believe without questioning.

When the Berlin Wall fell the possibly bankrupt, gleeful West saw more territory to plunder the resources of, but unfortunately Putin put the mockers on that.

The crimes of the US in Central and South America alone are horrendous compared to what Russia is currently accused of, but that is conveniently overlooked. It is easy to scoff from the peaceful land of plenty.

Reply 7

OP

Original post by uberteknik

Making poorly thought through decisions and acting on them is inexcusable and the West can hold it's hands up at these mistakes.

However, the trouble with Putin is that he lacks any form of trust by rest of the world. His ideas (demonstrated through actions) are not that of democracy but far closer to restrained facism and hence his comparison by some with Hitler.

There are many more people in Russia who do not/cannot speak out against him for fear of being silenced forever.

A little known law was passed a couple of weeks ago by Putin means that all persons in Russia with a social media following of over 3000, must now register themselves with the Russian authorities including such things as tweeting, blogging etc. This is a rather Draconian measure designed to curtail free speech and information flow.

For sure the West makes mistakes, but that does not mean we should roll over and let Putin trample on anthing he pleases.

I suggest you watch this video I originally posted, it is the west that I lack trust in not Putin, his opinion polls are over 80% in favour of his actions regarding Crimea

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Reply 8

uberteknik

Original post by Anonymous263

I suggest you watch this video I originally posted, it is the west that I lack trust in not Putin, his opinion polls are over 80% in favour of his actions regarding Crimea

Posted from TSR Mobile

Would that be a completely unbiased and representative random significant sample size from the whole population (all of Ukraine and not purely Putin sycophants) with a confidence interval of >95%?

Or is that a select sample approved by the Russian authorities to propagate and expedite his political ambitions?

Reply 9

Original post by Anonymous263

There seems to be a lot of misinformation and demonisation and I would even go so far as to say Russophobia in some cases going on in western media which many of us believe without questioning.
The western people (not all like myself) believe that Russia is evil and that the west is good. I would like to clear some things up and offer an alternative side to the story.

http://youtu.be/AXqdWBwadLk

This will get you up to speed on the history and background on what is happening in the world today involving Russia.

Search more of professor stephen cohen's videos on youtube and he also does a weekly podcast on the john batchelor show if you search it on google.

My basic point is that Russia isn't evil and Putin isn't an autocrat/hitler.
Don't just trust the media and believe everything that they say.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Your right that there is a degree of phobia towards Russia but I don't think its unfounded for many of the reasons that Uber makes out.

The main one though is trust. While the west is not perfect I trust that the worst thing they will do to me is read my emails and accuse me of being a terrorism if I'm not white. Contrast this to Russia who have invaded Georgia and Ukraine.

To be honest I really don't think Russia shares some important fundamental values of ours (or their government anyway). While China and India will end up far more powerful they are both nations who like most care about their peoples prosperity, power is simply the result of that as evidenced by the economic dominance China is accruing in Africa. Putin however seems to care only for power, his economy is dependent on one thing, his people are on average poorer than the Polish and other than about 10 years they've only ever known dictatorship or economic collapse.

Putin was not even elected in a manner deemed free and fair.

Reply 10

Original post by reciproversexclu

When the Berlin Wall fell the possibly bankrupt, gleeful West saw more territory to plunder the resources of, but unfortunately Putin put the mockers on that.

The crimes of the US in Central and South America alone are horrendous compared to what Russia is currently accused of, but that is conveniently overlooked. It is easy to scoff from the peaceful land of plenty.

Well we've got over 100 million people in eastern Europe and will win Ukraine so in economic terms we've certainly won.

Sure but at that time it a choice of join the US or join the USSR.

Reply 11

Aj12

18

Original post by Anonymous263

True my point is that so are our governments :P it's kinda shameful what we have done since ww2 especially in recent decades

Posted from TSR Mobile

Can I ask why does that matter? Yes our governments could be seen as being guilty of some of the same things as Putin, though I'd dispute the degree. But that does not make their criticism any less valid nor in any way take away from what Putin has done in Ukraine, his own country and other parts of the world.

Reply 12

OP

Have any of you watched the video? :P

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Reply 13

OP

Original post by Rakas21

Your right that there is a degree of phobia towards Russia but I don't think its unfounded for many of the reasons that Uber makes out.

The main one though is trust. While the west is not perfect I trust that the worst thing they will do to me is read my emails and accuse me of being a terrorism if I'm not white. Contrast this to Russia who have invaded Georgia and Ukraine.

To be honest I really don't think Russia shares some important fundamental values of ours (or their government anyway). While China and India will end up far more powerful they are both nations who like most care about their peoples prosperity, power is simply the result of that as evidenced by the economic dominance China is accruing in Africa. Putin however seems to care only for power, his economy is dependent on one thing, his people are on average poorer than the Polish and other than about 10 years they've only ever known dictatorship or economic collapse.

Putin was not even elected in a manner deemed free and fair.

Look I honestly don't want to get into another heated debate so I'll just reply to this and we can then agree to disagree.
Russia didn't start the war in Georgia it was them that attacked a town first and attacked Russian peacekeepers, Russia responded. It was a proxy war between the USA and Russia as the Georgian army was built up by american funds trained by american officers and in Ukraine their interests were once again threatened by NATO and the USA moving closer to their borders fearing that Crimea would become a NATO base Russia took it.
Yes during the early 2000's the Russian economy was basically run on natural gas and oil now they have branched out,
Russia is the second biggest exporter of military hardware.
They have been improving their tourist and high tech industries by mid 2020's- early 2030's the Russian economy is predicted to be in a very stable state and not just rely on one thing.

(Check the victoria nuland tape, stephen cohen and watch some of the state department briefings on Ukraine they speak for themselves)

I don't want this to turn into another heated argument, but wouldn't you agree that it would be best to work with Russia as a partner to help solve the world problems instead of isolating it from the west pushing it to china ( china has benefitted the most from this conflict) and starting a new Cold War?

Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union we had such a great opportunity to improve relations work peacefully together if only we treated Russia as our equal but instead we made Russia agree to almost every one of our demands (partly because Yeltsin was weak and Russia was very unstable economically and militarily) and Russia had received nothing in return.
Putin is misliked by the west not because of his anti gay laws do you really think politicians care about that.
He is misliked because he brought the country back on its feet economically and militarily and stopped agreeing to the wests demands without getting something in return.

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Reply 14

reciproversexclu

9

Original post by Rakas21

Well we've got over 100 million people in eastern Europe and will win Ukraine so in economic terms we've certainly won.

Sure but at that time it a choice of join the US or join the USSR.

Who is this 'we' what has it 'won' ? and what is this 'choice' you are referring to ?

(Original post by Anonymous263)
True my point is that so are our governments :P it's kinda shameful what we have done since ww2 especially in recent decades

Original post by Aj12

Can I ask why does that matter? Yes our governments could be seen as being guilty of some of the same things as Putin, though I'd dispute the degree. But that does not make their criticism any less valid nor in any way take away from what Putin has done in Ukraine, his own country and other parts of the world.

It might make it less credible if 'our governments' even acknowledged the word hypocrisy.

Do you know just what the US has done in terms of geopolitical gain since WW2 ? hint: bombing of South Vietnam 1961-62, bombing Cambodia 1973, bombing of North Korea 1951-52, Indonesian invasion of East Timor, World Court accused US of unlawful use of force in Nicaracua, invasion of Panama, and the fiasco in Iraq.

Reply 15

Inazuma

20

Original post by Anonymous263

There seems to be a lot of misinformation and demonisation and I would even go so far as to say Russophobia in some cases going on in western media which many of us believe without questioning.
The western people (not all like myself) believe that Russia is evil and that the west is good. I would like to clear some things up and offer an alternative side to the story.

http://youtu.be/AXqdWBwadLk

This will get you up to speed on the history and background on what is happening in the world today involving Russia.

Search more of professor stephen cohen's videos on youtube and he also does a weekly podcast on the john batchelor show if you search it on google.

My basic point is that Russia isn't evil and Putin isn't an autocrat/hitler.
Don't just trust the media and believe everything that they say.

Posted from TSR Mobile

All v true, unfortunately British people seem to prefer being manipulated by a shockingly Americanised media and thus a hug amount of misinformation goes on. Not met one British/American yet who has actually known... well anything... or ever read a Russian paper or spoken to Russian people.

Reply 16

Original post by reciproversexclu

Who is this 'we' what has it 'won' ? and what is this 'choice' you are referring to ?

(Original post by Anonymous263)
True my point is that so are our governments :P it's kinda shameful what we have done since ww2 especially in recent decades

It might make it less credible if 'our governments' even acknowledged the word hypocrisy.

Do you know just what the US has done in terms of geopolitical gain since WW2 ? hint: bombing of South Vietnam 1961-62, bombing Cambodia 1973, bombing of North Korea 1951-52, Indonesian invasion of East Timor, World Court accused US of unlawful use of force in Nicaracua, invasion of Panama, and the fiasco in Iraq.

We being the west. Most of eastern Europe are now members of both NATO and the EU and several countries that were under the iron curtain are now wealthier per head than Russia.

Your point suggested that the west saw the USSR as a consumer market to exploit once it collapsed and that Russia stopped this. My point is that we did get a significant part of that consumer market and will no doubt get another 40 million people in Ukraine.

Reply 17

reciproversexclu

9

Original post by Rakas21

We being the west. Most of eastern Europe are now members of both NATO and the EU and several countries that were under the iron curtain are now wealthier per head than Russia.

Your point suggested that the west saw the USSR as a consumer market to exploit once it collapsed and that Russia stopped this. My point is that we did get a significant part of that consumer market and will no doubt get another 40 million people in Ukraine.

What has it 'won' ? and what is this 'choice' you are referring to ?

Yes there are new NATO bases in places where they(the West) were said they would never venture: white man forked tongue, not in the fine print etc....

I was referring to the plunder inside Russia.

Reply 18

Original post by reciproversexclu

What has it 'won' ? and what is this 'choice' you are referring to ?

Yes there are new NATO bases in places where they(the West) were said they would never venture: white man forked tongue, not in the fine print etc....

I was referring to the plunder inside Russia.

What we won is a large part of the consumer market. The choice was to align with Russia or the west.

Perhaps but if they were undefended we could well see a situation similar to Ukraine so the west made the right call.

Reply 19

uberteknik