Father's educational achievements strongest indicator of childrens' academic success
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Original post by TenOfThem
It is rarer to see a couple where the female is educated to a higher level than the male
This is what I was thinking. Certainly with my parents and the areas that they grew up in, it wasn't the norm for women to go to university (around 1970s-1980s, North East). Considering other members of my family and friends, it's usually the dad who went onto further education (anecdotal evidence, obviously). My dad did a PhD in Chemistry, but my mum left school at 16 and went into work.
The statement probably only applies to everyday, banal, WASP families.
My dad comes from a remote Indian village where no-one had even completed school up to the age of 15. He holds a master's in economics (from the UK), a fellow Chartered Accountant. I'm hoping to work in pure mathematics and theoretical physics and do part time poetry/philosophy. My father has only influenced my education in this way: "Do what you want, provided you don't get below D grades, I'll be happy". Never has he sat down with me, paid for tutors or anything of that kind. Maybe we're all different like each grain of sand.
Ramanujan, perhaps the greatest pure mathematician of the 20th century who compiled thousands of dazzling theorems came from a family of village workers (his granddad had work as a clerk in a clothes shop). Carl Friedrich Gauss, the prince of Mathematics was born to illiterate parents who didn't even have the ability to write down when he was born. Gauss is probably in the top 3 Mathematicians to have ever lived.
My dad comes from a remote Indian village where no-one had even completed school up to the age of 15. He holds a master's in economics (from the UK), a fellow Chartered Accountant. I'm hoping to work in pure mathematics and theoretical physics and do part time poetry/philosophy. My father has only influenced my education in this way: "Do what you want, provided you don't get below D grades, I'll be happy". Never has he sat down with me, paid for tutors or anything of that kind. Maybe we're all different like each grain of sand.
Ramanujan, perhaps the greatest pure mathematician of the 20th century who compiled thousands of dazzling theorems came from a family of village workers (his granddad had work as a clerk in a clothes shop). Carl Friedrich Gauss, the prince of Mathematics was born to illiterate parents who didn't even have the ability to write down when he was born. Gauss is probably in the top 3 Mathematicians to have ever lived.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Rinsed
Now that, in our generation, women are the higher qualified gender soon I think this won't be rare at all.
Now that, in our generation, women are the higher qualified gender soon I think this won't be rare at all.
I agree - I have the higher level of education - and know other couples where this is the same - so it is a changing picture
But I think it goes some way to explain the statistic quoted
Original post by Rinsed
Why? Dictate is a strong word, but there is obviously a large effect.
Neither of my parents went to university. I'm going to one of the best universities in the world. There is no effect in my case.
Original post by Rinsed
Well, neither did mine, and I recently graduated from an even better university (Oxford, teehee 
) but it's more complicated than that. My father was bright, went to grammar school, but came from a council estate where going to university was very much not the norm, and where it seemed more natural just to get a job after A levels. Two of my grandparents were amongst the best students in their respective grammar schools, but had to leave at 15 because their families couldn't afford to educate them further.
So whilst, on the face of it, I have out-achieved my parents, it would be impossible to deny the effect coming from a family where education was respected has had.
And I suspect there is something similar in many families, where the opportunities afforded to our generation are so much greater than those our forbears received.
But even in cases where this is not true, correlations do not imply certainties. Maybe you are a statistical outlier, but you cannot deny that people's parents have a huge effect on their children's achievements.
) but it's more complicated than that. My father was bright, went to grammar school, but came from a council estate where going to university was very much not the norm, and where it seemed more natural just to get a job after A levels. Two of my grandparents were amongst the best students in their respective grammar schools, but had to leave at 15 because their families couldn't afford to educate them further.So whilst, on the face of it, I have out-achieved my parents, it would be impossible to deny the effect coming from a family where education was respected has had.
And I suspect there is something similar in many families, where the opportunities afforded to our generation are so much greater than those our forbears received.
But even in cases where this is not true, correlations do not imply certainties. Maybe you are a statistical outlier, but you cannot deny that people's parents have a huge effect on their children's achievements.
Ah, so you are one of those who believes perpetuating a silly rivalry between two of the most prestigious academic institutions is amusing.
Similarly, my mother encouraged me to work hard in education though I was already exceptionally bright and motivated as a child unlike my peers who showed no natural aptitude.
Certainly, our ancestors typically did not attend higher education establishments - especially those from the poor working classes. Nowadays anyone and their dog can attend university because of the systematic dumbing down of education. I am also well aware that correlation does not imply causation, you do not need to treat me like an ignorant child for I am not one. I just acknowledge that more foolish people do unfortunately confuse themselves over what is clearly evident, and thus I took a disliking to the idea that most people view my circumstances and expect very little from me as a result.
I am always a statistical outlier it seems. I'm an anomalous case in many areas. It's almost as if human reasoning based on specious generalisation is too hastily applied...
My dad's on a minimum wage screw up who went to a grammar school and I'm going to be a minimum wage screw up who went to a grammar school.
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Original post by Exceptional
My dad left when I was a baby and I've since been brought up by my mother. None had any qualifications, yet I have 16 GCSEs, 7 AS' and currently doing A2s. Applying to university this year to study Economics.
Your achievements are what you make of them and shouldn't be influenced by what parents have done.
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Your achievements are what you make of them and shouldn't be influenced by what parents have done.
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Well said.
My grandad was in the navy his whole life, pretty sure he doesn't have an academic qualification to his name. However my mum was the first in the family to go to university and then onto a postgraduate degree and her brother (my uncle) has a PhD and various other esteemed qualifications. Sometimes it does just come out of nowhere. My dad's family is the same, very working class, leaving school at 16 and then he was the only one to go to uni.
Both my parents have a similar level of education so I can't really tell. My dad is an engineer and obviously I have no interest in that so have taken a different career choice, more similar to my mums. However I suppose how involved the father is in the child's education, my dad didn't really have any input (eg, didn't even know when I was doing my gcses or what they were). However in a lot of 'academic' families it tends to be the children follow the traditional job of the highest earner (so doctors children usually do medicine etc) - whether this is down to encouragement rather than genetics it's hard to tell.
Both my parents have a similar level of education so I can't really tell. My dad is an engineer and obviously I have no interest in that so have taken a different career choice, more similar to my mums. However I suppose how involved the father is in the child's education, my dad didn't really have any input (eg, didn't even know when I was doing my gcses or what they were). However in a lot of 'academic' families it tends to be the children follow the traditional job of the highest earner (so doctors children usually do medicine etc) - whether this is down to encouragement rather than genetics it's hard to tell.
Interesting, I'm an exception to the rule, Mum and Dad both left school at 16, Dad works in a factory and my mum in an office, and I've already got 1 A Level, hopefully getting 3 more this year, and hoping to go an RG uni to study Engineering.
Dad got A's at A level, 1's in S levels, did medicine at Manchester.
I'm off to do Maths at Cambridge.
Seems legit.
I'm off to do Maths at Cambridge.
Seems legit.
Original post by Rinsed
Chill out. You sound like a right laugh.
For someone apparently going to Cambridge, this is basically unreadable.
For someone apparently going to Cambridge, this is basically unreadable.
Excuse me?
My mum only received primary education. My dad didn't pass his 11+ exam and ended up going to a Technical School and later trained to become an electrician.
I completed GCSE's and A Levels and then went onto Uni but failed to complete my degree and currently work in retail. I guess I have regressed and done worse?
I completed GCSE's and A Levels and then went onto Uni but failed to complete my degree and currently work in retail. I guess I have regressed and done worse?
The cycle of poverty certainly exists, and is worrying.
Personally though: my dad left school at 15 with no qualifications, and has worked for the same people (although it's changed name, etc) since then, working his way up. He is currently quite successful, but educationally he obviously achieved nothing. It was all through natural progression and hard work.
My mum dropped out of her A levels, went into full time work, and stayed there until she had her 2nd child when she quit work for a while.
Once we were all older, she went back into education and became a counsellor (therapy).
We as children all went down very different routes. I did my degree and became a Piano teacher, my younger sister went into work training horses, and my youngest brother just started uni studying Geography.
Were we influenced by our father's education?
Personally though: my dad left school at 15 with no qualifications, and has worked for the same people (although it's changed name, etc) since then, working his way up. He is currently quite successful, but educationally he obviously achieved nothing. It was all through natural progression and hard work.
My mum dropped out of her A levels, went into full time work, and stayed there until she had her 2nd child when she quit work for a while.
Once we were all older, she went back into education and became a counsellor (therapy).
We as children all went down very different routes. I did my degree and became a Piano teacher, my younger sister went into work training horses, and my youngest brother just started uni studying Geography.
Were we influenced by our father's education?
If you have failed university the first time round don't give up, either try another course or go to open university
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Original post by senz72
My dad's on a minimum wage screw up who went to a grammar school and I'm going to be a minimum wage screw up who went to a grammar school.
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That depends if you work at your gcses and a levels and change your mindset the better life would be for you. If the more you believe you are screw up the more you will fail. (Self fulfilling prophecy)?
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I wonder whether it is the father's educational achievements per se, or rather their attitude towards education, that is the best predictor.
It is interesting reading everyone's personal examples of families that buck the trend; I guess I do too- parents have 5 O-levels each, then both went on to get catering qualifications and trained as chefs. They now both work in bakeries- one more a family business, the other a factory. Academic qualifications were never a focus of theirs, whilst I've just completed my MSc at Oxford and am about to start my PhD here.
They often say they "don't know where it comes from" (with regards to my love of academia)- so what about their attitudes towards education? Well, neither of them ever really pushed me or encouraged academic success specifically- in fact, they're both pretty laid back and wouldn't mind if I worked in retail for the rest of my life (as long as I was happy). There's no history of academic success on either side of my family, either; in fact, one of my grandfather's can't read or write...
Sometimes it is self-motivated. However, there will always be outliers and I can see how the father's educational achievements could have an impact on their child, but I do think it's more about attitude and the environment that the child is brought up in, rather than the educational achievements per se.
It is interesting reading everyone's personal examples of families that buck the trend; I guess I do too- parents have 5 O-levels each, then both went on to get catering qualifications and trained as chefs. They now both work in bakeries- one more a family business, the other a factory. Academic qualifications were never a focus of theirs, whilst I've just completed my MSc at Oxford and am about to start my PhD here.
They often say they "don't know where it comes from" (with regards to my love of academia)- so what about their attitudes towards education? Well, neither of them ever really pushed me or encouraged academic success specifically- in fact, they're both pretty laid back and wouldn't mind if I worked in retail for the rest of my life (as long as I was happy). There's no history of academic success on either side of my family, either; in fact, one of my grandfather's can't read or write...
Sometimes it is self-motivated. However, there will always be outliers and I can see how the father's educational achievements could have an impact on their child, but I do think it's more about attitude and the environment that the child is brought up in, rather than the educational achievements per se.
Original post by llacerta
I wonder whether it is the father's educational achievements per se, or rather their attitude towards education, that is the best predictor.
Or is this about mothers and whom they choose as partners?
We are starting to leave the world where most parents of most students will have few if any qualifications. In 1975 19% of school leavers left school with no O level equivalent passes. You have 21% with 5 or more passes.
From the late 1970s onwards the old apprenticeship system had broken down.
There comes a point where there are relatively few "good catches" for husbands (the military, oilmen, building tradesmen) with no school qualifications to speak of.
Original post by nulli tertius
Or is this about mothers and whom they choose as partners?
We are starting to leave the world where most parents of most students will have few if any qualifications. In 1975 19% of school leavers left school with no O level equivalent passes. You have 21% with 5 or more passes.
From the late 1970s onwards the old apprenticeship system had broken down.
There comes a point where there are relatively few "good catches" for husbands (the military, oilmen, building tradesmen) with no school qualifications to speak of.
We are starting to leave the world where most parents of most students will have few if any qualifications. In 1975 19% of school leavers left school with no O level equivalent passes. You have 21% with 5 or more passes.
From the late 1970s onwards the old apprenticeship system had broken down.
There comes a point where there are relatively few "good catches" for husbands (the military, oilmen, building tradesmen) with no school qualifications to speak of.
Forgive me if I'm being dense, but I don't really understand what you're saying here.
I get that you're saying that nowadays, fewer people leave school without any qualifications, and alongside the apprenticeship system breaking down, this led to an increase in the proportion of individuals going onto university etc. And then you say that there are fewer "good catches" (referring to jobs, I assume? And not wives?) for men with no qualifications. So in general, more and more men are going further in their education.
But I still don't see how this relates to why educational achievement of the father predicts the child's academic success...More women were also getting such qualifications. Similarly, just because the sample demographic might have shifted doesn't mean that this would then necessarily predict academic success. Just because the proportion of those with few academic qualifications has decreased doesn't mean that there should therefore be a correlation between this and their child's academic success.
Original post by llacerta
Forgive me if I'm being dense, but I don't really understand what you're saying here.
I get that you're saying that nowadays, fewer people leave school without any qualifications, and alongside the apprenticeship system breaking down, this led to an increase in the proportion of individuals going onto university etc. And then you say that there are fewer "good catches" (referring to jobs, I assume? And not wives?) for men with no qualifications. So in general, more and more men are going further in their education.
But I still don't see how this relates to why educational achievement of the father predicts the child's academic success...More women were also getting such qualifications. Similarly, just because the sample demographic might have shifted doesn't mean that this would then necessarily predict academic success. Just because the proportion of those with few academic qualifications has decreased doesn't mean that there should therefore be a correlation between this and their child's academic success.
I get that you're saying that nowadays, fewer people leave school without any qualifications, and alongside the apprenticeship system breaking down, this led to an increase in the proportion of individuals going onto university etc. And then you say that there are fewer "good catches" (referring to jobs, I assume? And not wives?) for men with no qualifications. So in general, more and more men are going further in their education.
But I still don't see how this relates to why educational achievement of the father predicts the child's academic success...More women were also getting such qualifications. Similarly, just because the sample demographic might have shifted doesn't mean that this would then necessarily predict academic success. Just because the proportion of those with few academic qualifications has decreased doesn't mean that there should therefore be a correlation between this and their child's academic success.
Generalising (and ignoring the changes in women's' economic power) female success has been measured in making a good marriage and raising a family that has more material success than the couple themselves enjoyed.
In the past male success was tied to educational achievement for a much smaller number of men than it is today. As the key to male success has become more closely tied to educational achievement, women may have become more educationally selective in their choice of husbands (do you ask your boyfriends how many head of cattle they have or whether they are likely to make foreman at t'mill?) and more aggressively promote the educational success of their children (rather than say, in the case of girls, having them make a good match or in the case of boys encouraging them to join a good regiment, a good factory or the police force).
As a result male educational success may correlate to but not be causative of children's' educational attainment.
Original post by nulli tertius
Generalising (and ignoring the changes in women's' economic power) female success has been measured in making a good marriage and raising a family that has more material success than the couple themselves enjoyed.
In the past male success was tied to educational achievement for a much smaller number of men than it is today. As the key to male success has become more closely tied to educational achievement, women may have become more educationally selective in their choice of husbands (do you ask your boyfriends how many head of cattle they have or whether they are likely to make foreman at t'mill?) and more aggressively promote the educational success of their children (rather than say, in the case of girls, having them make a good match or in the case of boys encouraging them to join a good regiment, a good factory or the police force).
As a result male educational success may correlate to but not be causative of children's' educational attainment.
In the past male success was tied to educational achievement for a much smaller number of men than it is today. As the key to male success has become more closely tied to educational achievement, women may have become more educationally selective in their choice of husbands (do you ask your boyfriends how many head of cattle they have or whether they are likely to make foreman at t'mill?) and more aggressively promote the educational success of their children (rather than say, in the case of girls, having them make a good match or in the case of boys encouraging them to join a good regiment, a good factory or the police force).
As a result male educational success may correlate to but not be causative of children's' educational attainment.
Ah, okay, I see what you're saying now, makes sense.
Although the first question I ask on a date is always "are you likely to make foreman at t'mill?"
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