The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

Original post by DaveSmith99

I disagree, I understand what Hamas is and still see Israel as the main problem. Hamas didn't emerge from a vacuum, they are the consequence of an oppressed and hopeless peoples. Land grabs, bulldozing homes, barriers, occupation and police and military brutality can only lead in one direction, and that direction is extremism.

So why did the jihad exist before Israel existed? Why did the jihad try to destroy Israel as soon as it was created? Why are all the surrounding countries disgustingly unfree as Gaza is? Why did Hamas execute their political opponents? (Who were also the despicable terrorists of Fatah.) Why do Hamas impose barbaric religious law on Gaza? Why is Israel the main problem when it is the only country with a democratic tradition lasting for more than one election, in the middle east? Why is Israel the problem when it is the only country in the middle east which gives freedom to atheists, gays, apostates and dissenters?

Reply 5982

Original post by felamaslen

So why did the jihad exist before Israel existed? Why did the jihad try to destroy Israel as soon as it was created? Why are all the surrounding countries disgustingly unfree as Gaza is? Why did Hamas execute their political opponents? (Who were also the despicable terrorists of Fatah.) Why do Hamas impose barbaric religious law on Gaza? Why is Israel the main problem when it is the only country with a democratic tradition lasting for more than one election, in the middle east? Why is Israel the problem when it is the only country in the middle east which gives freedom to atheists, gays, apostates and dissenters?

Because to ensure its creation foreign powers had to fracture the entire ME.

Its like Iran deciding to invade New York and settle some of its oppressed people after suppressing and fracturing the entire US and brewing nationalism and independance in every state.

Reply 5983

DaveSmith99

14

Original post by felamaslen

So why did the jihad exist before Israel existed?

Because the Palestinian people saw a third party trying to establish a state on their homes.

Why did the jihad try to destroy Israel as soon as it was created?

Is that not a reasonable reaction when someone declares that over half of your country no longer belongs to you? What do you think the UK's reaction would be if that happened to us?

Why are all the surrounding countries disgustingly unfree as Gaza is?

Mostly because after the fall of the Muslim expires the west crudely redrew the map of the entire Middle East and then spent the rest of the century installing and proping up brutal totalitarian dictators, with no concern whatsoever for anything other than ensuring they were friendly to Western economic interests.

Why did Hamas execute their political opponents? (Who were also the despicable terrorists of Fatah.) Why do Hamas impose barbaric religious law on Gaza?

Because they are an abhorant, extremist group. You're still making the mistake of assuming anti-Israel = pro-Hamas.

Why is Israel the main problem when it is the only country with a democratic tradition lasting for more than one election, in the middle east? Why is Israel the problem when it is the only country in the middle east which gives freedom to atheists, gays, apostates and dissenters?

It isn't the main problem, it's one of many problems. It is however a massive problem for peace and stability in the Middle East, it radicalises Muslims around the world, fuels anti-semitism, condemns millions of people to lives of hopelessness and oppression and poverty and danger. A problem that was almost entirely created by the West and more specifically the UK.

Reply 5984

Original post by DaveSmith99

Because the Palestinian people saw a third party trying to establish a state on their homes.

Right, so you admit it wasn't about "oppression" and "hopelessness". It's an ideology of destruction. The only ones making Gaza oppressed and hopeless are Hamas! (Well, they aren't the only ones. Islamic Jihad and other Islamist supporters do so as well.)

Is that not a reasonable reaction when someone declares that over half of your country no longer belongs to you? What do you think the UK's reaction would be if that happened to us?

What country? There wasn't a Palestinian country. It was part of the British empire. Before that, the Ottoman empire.

Mostly because after the fall of the Muslim expires the west crudely redrew the map of the entire Middle East and then spent the rest of the century installing and proping up brutal totalitarian dictators, with no concern whatsoever for anything other than ensuring they were friendly to Western economic interests.

That theory doesn't work very well with the evidence. We have the Arab spring, which resulted in dictators being elected. The Islamist Muslim brotherhood in Egypt got elected. Hamas got elected in Gaza, which is essentially an arm of the Muslim brotherhood. The Egyptian people elected to oppress the Egyptian people. In Iraq, you have Sunni fanatics bombing voting stations and Shia mosques. This has nothing to do with colonial borders. Sure, maybe the borders in the middle east could have been drawn a bit better, but come on - that is not the root cause of the lack of freedom. The root cause is a lack of belief in freedom.

Because they are an abhorant, extremist group. You're still making the mistake of assuming anti-Israel = pro-Hamas.

If you're against both Israel and Hamas then you're not contributing to the conversation. It's like being against both Britain and Germany during the second world war.

It isn't the main problem, it's one of many problems. It is however a massive problem for peace and stability in the Middle East, it radicalises Muslims around the world, fuels anti-semitism, condemns millions of people to lives of hopelessness and oppression and poverty and danger. A problem that was almost entirely created by the West and more specifically the UK.

I would say that you are wrong, and Israel represents hope for the middle east. It represents a free society, where you don't get arrested for voicing an opinion or having a different lifestyle or believing in some strange religion. It represents liberalism, as far as it exists in the middle east. It isn't perfect but it's the only thing we have, and we have to work with what we've got. Denouncing Israel is like denouncing Britain in 1936, while the rest of Europe comes under the grip of fascism with only Britain (and the United States) as its hope for a better future.

Reply 5985

Original post by RoyalBlue7

Because to ensure its creation foreign powers had to fracture the entire ME.

Its like Iran deciding to invade New York and settle some of its oppressed people after suppressing and fracturing the entire US and brewing nationalism and independance in every state.

But the entire middle east was fractured anyway, as a result of the dissolution of the Ottoman empire (which had to happen as the Ottoman empire was evil). This is a very weak argument from you.

Reply 5986

Original post by felamaslen

But the entire middle east was fractured anyway, as a result of the dissolution of the Ottoman empire (which had to happen as the Ottoman empire was evil). This is a very weak argument from you.

What prevents the Caliphate from reviving and kicking off Israel once and for all from the map? (politically)

Israel was born from terrorism and bloodshed and violence. If the same were used to destroy Israel politically I assure you the ME will once again love freedom. If you object to this then why do you not object to the creation of Israel in pure evil.

That theory doesn't work very well with the evidence. We have the Arab spring, which resulted in dictators being elected. The Islamist Muslim brotherhood in Egypt got elected. Hamas got elected in Gaza, which is essentially an arm of the Muslim brotherhood. The Egyptian peopleelected to oppress the Egyptian people. In Iraq, you have Sunni fanatics bombing voting stations and Shia mosques. This has nothing to do with colonial borders. Sure, maybe the borders in the middle east could have been drawn a bit better, but come on - that is not the root cause of the lack of freedom. The root cause is a lack of belief in freedom.

Democracy would always favour the Islamists because theyare the majority. That's why the West is playing double standards here. It is the West that is blocking the ME from democracy and then praising a rogue state for being a beacon of light and a model liberal democracy.

Reply 5987

If you're against both Israel and Hamas then you're not contributing to the conversation.

Ridiculous thing to say,

I'm against Hamas because they don't believe in a two state solution
I'm against Israel because the higher-ups of Israel don't believe in a two state solution.

Both has to change their ways but the onus is on the people at power

Reply 5988

Ggmu!

Original post by RoyalBlue7

Ridiculous thing to say,

I'm against Hamas because they don't believe in a two state solution
I'm against Israel because the higher-ups of Israel don't believe in a two state solution.

Both has to change their ways but the onus is on the people at power

Agree, how people can think only one party is to blame is beyond me.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 5989

Original post by RoyalBlue7

What prevents the Caliphate from reviving and kicking off Israel once and for all from the map? (politically)

Nothing except the IDF; that's what the Islamofascists want. That's what Hezbollah and Hamas want. That's why Israel goes to extreme lengths to defend itself.

Israel was born from terrorism and bloodshed and violence. If the same were used to destroy Israel politically I assure you the ME will once again love freedom. If you object to this then why do you not object to the creation of Israel in pure evil.

Not true at all - the middle east hates freedom. Israel is the only free part of the middle east, in fact. If Israel were wiped from the map, the state of Palestine would become like the state of Jordan or Oman or Yemen; simply another standard tyranny.

Who cares how Israel was born. We're talking about today, not 1948. It is a different question whether I would support the creation of Israel in 1948. I'm not saying you are correct by the way; the creation of Israel was a good thing relatively because we now have a democracy that we can work with, and that hopefully the rest of the middle east can learn from if they get their heads out of their Islamist arses.

Democracy would always favour the Islamists because theyare the majority. That's why the West is playing double standards here. It is the West that is blocking the ME from democracy and then praising a rogue state for being a beacon of light and a model liberal democracy.

You're saying that democracy is impossible in the middle east, which may be true, and certainly is true in countries like Egypt where a large subsection of the population despise democracy. Let me tell you - voting for a fascist is not democracy.

Reply 5990

Original post by RoyalBlue7

Ridiculous thing to say,

I'm against Hamas because they don't believe in a two state solution
I'm against Israel because the higher-ups of Israel don't believe in a two state solution.

Both has to change their ways but the onus is on the people at power

Hamas don't believe in a two state solution because they believe it should all be a tyranny under Islamist control.

Israel doesn't believe in a two state solution because every time it's offered one, it's had a disgusting intifada in return.

Israel accepted the original two state solution in 1947. Palestine didn't. That has been the story since 1948.

Reply 5991

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2979641

Original post by Ggmu!

Agree, how people can think only one party is to blame is beyond me.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Would you say Britain or Germany was to blame for WWII?

Reply 5992

Jgco2chem

11

The saddest thing about the Israeli's killed by the Palestinians is that the Israel won't stop at killing those Palestinians/family members but more.

Why does an Israeli person worth 9 Palestinians

[h="3"]At least 1,185 Israelis and 9,100 Palestinians
have been killed since September 29, 2000.[/h]

Reply 5993

emilysmith123

4

Reply 5994

DErasmus

3

you make the silly mistake of assuming there is a correlation between amount of deaths and right / wrong... on the contrary the amount of people who die has no effect on the actual position, particularly when it can be argued that 9x as many people die as a consequence of the 1x who die.

hypothetical

there are two governments

government a has lost 1,000 people it is a secular democracy
government b has lost 9,000 people it is an aggressive nationalistic state.

who is wrong?

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 5995

james22

16

If you are being attacked, you defend yourself. If this means that the attacker suffers more damage than you, it's their fault for striking against you.

Reply 5996

DErasmus

3

Original post by james22

If you are being attacked, you defend yourself. If this means that the attacker suffers more damage than you, it's their fault for striking against you.

its like saying

a bully in a playground punches someone and does little damage but they get punched back in the nose and it breaks, therefore the bully was right.

Reply 5997

Original post by viddy9

No, it hasn't. The current President of Palestine, Mahmoud Abbas, fully accepts a two-state solution based on boundaries as defined by international law.

Netanyahu, on the other hand, and his party, have made it perfectly clear that they do not support a two-state solution.

Until the Israelis start to abide by international law and accept a two-state solution based upon it, the Palestinians won't agree to their land being stolen in any Israeli "offer".

The conflict isn't about land though, otherwise we would have seen intifadas against Jordan and Egypt, for example, when they were occupying the West Bank and Gaza, respectively. Only when Israel took the Palestinian land off those countries did we hear about land being "stolen". Israel has historically been the defender, the accommodator, the one to offer peace and a two state solution. In recent years it has hardened, sure, but who can blame them given the stubbornness of its neighbours.

By the way, the reason Israel rejects the two-state solution based on 1967 borders is because it would mean suicide for Israel. Giving Gaza independence in 2005 resulted in a Hamas takeover, and incessant, bloody wars in the years since. Can you blame Israel for not wanting to make the same mistake with the West Bank?

That's not the case. Why do many rightwingers have such a bad habit of making false dichotomies, a logical fallacy I term 'Bush-logic'. It's like saying that you have to support the Nazi occupation of France or you have to support all the actions, including those taken against civilians, by the French resistance. Of course you don't - similarly, you can disagree with the Israeli occupation of Palestine as well as some of the actions taken by Hamas.

It is not like saying that; it is like saying that you can be against both the French resistance and the German occupation of France while simultaneously claiming to be in some way useful to the debate. You can criticise both sides while supporting one, and still be useful. I don't support everything Israel does, for example. Neither do I support everything Britain did during WWII. But I support both of those countries in their respective wars, because both face(d) very similar, repellent enemies.

In principle I think that Palestine should be an independent country. But only if it is a liberal democracy like Israel (or better). At the moment, giving Palestine independence would result in a standard tyranny. What is the point of that?

Reply 5998

MatureStudent36

5

Original post by Jgco2chem

The saddest thing about the Israeli's killed by the Palestinians is that the Israel won't stop at killing those Palestinians/family members but more.

Why does an Israeli person worth 9 Palestinians

At least 1,185 Israelis and 9,100 Palestinians
have been killed since September 29, 2000.

Because Israel is better at defending its population than the Palestinians.

As the old saying goes.

People without iron dome air defence systems shouldn't fire rockets at those that do, and then complain when they get targeted.

Reply 5999