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The only reason that less Israelis have died is because they have an incredible missile defense system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome. The Palestinians are firing just as many rockets, if not more, at Israel, it's just that the rockets never reach.
i love how it's only the israeli deaths that the news dains to tell us about
I'm not particularly pro-Jew, pro-Israel or pro-Zionist but considering the Jews in Israel are stuck in a country surrounded on all sides by people that hate them and frequently go out of their way to attack them, I think Israel have every right to defend themselves and even attack back.
Original post by Jemner01
I'm not particularly pro-Jew, pro-Israel or pro-Zionist but considering the Jews in Israel are stuck in a country surrounded on all sides by people that hate them and frequently go out of their way to attack them, I think Israel have every right to defend themselves and even attack back.


it's completely the other way round
Original post by hdaindak
it's completely the other way round


Well, I think it's true in both cases actually, but at least Palestine has the entirety of the Middle East and the UN on its side.
If you put any other country in the world in Israels position, it would do exactly the same.
Original post by KingBradly
Well, I think it's true in both cases actually, but at least Palestine has the entirety of the Middle East and the UN on its side.


and Israel has America
Reply 6007
Original post by viddy9
They've been the side which has consistently rejected the international consensus on the two-state solution and have, along with the United States, vetoed any attempt to implement a two state solution at the UN. In January 1976, this pattern of events was in its early stages: a resolution was brought to the UN Security Council. It called for a two-state settlement on the internationally recognized border "with guarantees for the rights of both states to exist in peace and security within secure and recognized borders." Israel refused to attend the session. The resolution was vetoed by the United States. This has continued to the present day.


Someone's been reading Chomsky I see. This is plainly a massively one-sided version of affairs. First, the Palestinians have also 'consistently' rejected any plans for a two-state solution, beginning as far back as the UN's 1946 Partition Plan.

Your point about the 1976 UNSC Resolution is disingenuous. It came just 3 years after the Arab-Israeli war; it was brought by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria, who had attacked Israel in said war to reclaim the Sinai and Golan. They lost the war, so tried to get them back under the cover of a UNSC resolution concerning Palestine. Hence the reference in the resolution to a return to the 1960s borders.



Original post by viddy9
And, Hamas were voted in in free and fair democratic elections, and, after this democratic election, the so-called pro-democracy players: Israel, the United States and co., then proceeded to punish the Palestinian people for voting the wrong way by supporting an attempted coup in the Gaza Strip, which did indeed lead to bloodshed.


Could the events after those elections, when Hamas went about massacring all Fatah members in the Gaza, perhaps have something to do with that, hmm?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/06/14/us-palestinian-reprisals-idUSL1474926320070614

Original post by viddy9
From the ceasefire agreed upon in 2012 to 2014, Hamas abided by the terms of the ceasefire;


Too easy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2013


The offer for a two state-solution has been on the table for decades. There's been reticence on both sides, but by far the greatest obstacle is the Palestinians. The will simply not accept any concessions, unlike the Israelis.
Original post by hdaindak
i love how it's only the israeli deaths that the news dains to tell us about


Except it doesn't at all, and the left-wing media (and the BBC) is totally bias towards Palestine.
Original post by hdaindak
and Israel has America


Hmm, but Israel isn't surrounded by America. Palestine is surrounded by the Middle East.
Original post by hdaindak
it's completely the other way round


My world history is poor but I'm pretty sure Jews were given Israel by the UNGA, and that it's surrounded by majority Muslim countries which hate Judaism/Christianity. There's been near constant warfare since because the Palestinians believe Israel is their sacred religious land or somesuch, and hate the Jews even more for living there. Most of Israel's actions have been in their own defence (although Mossad have a reputation for being merciless and using all sorts of non-UN/NATO compliant tactics including kidnapping and torture), although it ultimately leads to the argument over where the line between necessary and necessary defence actually is.
Original post by KingBradly
Hmm, but Israel isn't surrounded by America. Palestine is surrounded by the Middle East.


but America is much more powerful and can supply v powerful weapons to Israel
Original post by Jemner01
My world history is poor but I'm pretty sure Jews were given Israel by the UNGA, and that it's surrounded by majority Muslim countries which hate Judaism/Christianity. There's been near constant warfare since because the Palestinians believe Israel is their sacred religious land or somesuch, and hate the Jews even more for living there. Most of Israel's actions have been in their own defence (although Mossad have a reputation for being merciless and using all sorts of non-UN/NATO compliant tactics including kidnapping and torture), although it ultimately leads to the argument over where the line between necessary and necessary defence actually is.


the palestinians lived there for 100s of years before the israeli's came... i think you'd be pissed off too
Original post by KingBradly
Except it doesn't at all, and the left-wing media (and the BBC) is totally bias towards Palestine.


left-wing media doesn't have much influence unfortunately
Original post by hdaindak
but America is much more powerful and can supply v powerful weapons to Israel


Saudi Arabia is incredibly powerful and has one of the biggest and most powerful embassies in America. It must be nice to have them on your side.
Original post by hdaindak
the palestinians lived there for 100s of years before the israeli's came... i think you'd be pissed off too


No, I wouldn't, because conquest is conquest. If someone takes your land, it's no longer yours. Waging war because of a history you're not even part of is silly: I wouldn't carry out raids on the English border just because the English took areas of Southern Scotland during the wars of Scottish Independence. The wars waged by my (potential) ancestors have no real relevance to me. Besides, it was the major European powers and the US that decided to give the land to the Jews, and before that the Brits owned it.
Original post by hdaindak
left-wing media doesn't have much influence unfortunately


I think it does. The vast majority of people in this country support Palestine. When those rockets got found in UN schools, the media reported it, but then when apparently that wasn't true, they reported that even more. But then when it turned out it was true, they barely mentioned it.

They also have failed to bring much attention the fact that many of the civillian deaths have actually been HAMAS operatives in civillian clothes. A breach of UN law, I might add.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/08/08/BBC-Caution-needed-with-Hamas-Supplied-Gaza-Civilian-casualty-figures
Original post by RoyalBlue7
Tbh that's what the majority of the ME wants. The question is why? Is Israel to blame for bringing the "wrath" on her or has the Arabs got some deeply rooted anti-semitism in their genes?

Historically the Jews did far better when they lived under Muslim rule than under Christendom. If there existed an extraordinary anti-semitic gene in Muslims, one should wonder why the only Jewish cultural golden age in the Christian era sprang up in Islamic Spain and not anywhere else.


It's nothing to do with genes, but there is something wrong with Arab culture in that it is seemingly incompatible, in its current form, with liberal democracy, as demonstrated by the Arab spring, Iraq, etc.

You're comparing Islam with an exceedingly low base line. Christianity spent a good millennium or more persecuting Jews to the highest and most barbaric extent imaginable, ending finally with the holocaust. Liberal democracy was a Western invention, and it's far better than both Islam and Christianity. Christian societies have, for the most part, abandoned Christianity in favour of liberal democracy (sub-Saharan Africa not included), but Islamic societies have yet to do so.

They have a different definition of freedom and you shouldn't take that against them. If you claim that democracy is the way forward why do you not desire it for the ME. These tyranies have the backing of the West and that what's keeps them going.


When I talk about "democracy", I mean "liberal democracy". I don't mean "let's all vote for Islamofascism". Believe me I want the middle east to be liberal and democratic - that's why I support Israel, since it is the only middle eastern liberal democracy. As for Western backing, that is only due to economics and realpolitik. Notice that the United States doesn't push for dictators in Europe, because Europe believes in liberal democracy. The United States doesn't have the will power to turn the middle east into Western Europe unless there is something in it for them, and it is easier to work with what you've got - a choice between a disgusting dictator who serves your interests, and a disgusting dictator who doesn't.

Okay, so we can also let Hamas and Hezbollah have their way and slaughter Israel and wipe it off the map. After some time who will care? The Palestinians will no more be oppressed and with Israel gone, the west cannot play its games anymore. The tyrants will fall, and democracy would give the islamists power. They would then have to elect a caliph to rule over all the smaller democracies and then the ME can come back to its rightful place. The genocide of Israel would well be justified by the peace of the entire region.

Somebody would say then 50 years from now: who cares what happened to Israel? We have peace at last.


Hang on, you got something wrong! If Hamas and Hezbollah reach any kind of victory, that is a victory for oppression. That is not freedom! What nonsense you spew. You must have a very strange and inverted definition of what "freedom" means, because to me it means a free society - precisely what Israel's enemies are fighting against.

Democracy rightfully gave power to the MB. Who are you to judge who is a fascist in Egypt? When he was rightfully elected. Get off your high horse. By couping out a democratically elected govt the enemies of Egypt just gave one more reason for the Islamists to use violence to gain their rightful power rather than through democracy.


Nonsense. The Muslim Brotherhood oppose liberal values. They oppose democracy. **** the Muslim Brotherhood.

I don't suppose you'd make the same argument in favour of the fuhrer too? Remember, that piece of filth was "democratically" elected.

You have zero understanding of what democracy and freedom actually mean.
Original post by Jemner01
No, I wouldn't, because conquest is conquest. If someone takes your land, it's no longer yours. Waging war because of a history you're not even part of is silly: I wouldn't carry out raids on the English border just because the English took areas of Southern Scotland during the wars of Scottish Independence. The wars waged by my (potential) ancestors have no real relevance to me. Besides, it was the major European powers and the US that decided to give the land to the Jews, and before that the Brits owned it.


what that doesn't even make sense- so if someone came to your door with a gun and said that it was now theirs that would be ok would it
Original post by Jemner01
No, I wouldn't, because conquest is conquest. If someone takes your land, it's no longer yours. Waging war because of a history you're not even part of is silly: I wouldn't carry out raids on the English border just because the English took areas of Southern Scotland during the wars of Scottish Independence. The wars waged by my (potential) ancestors have no real relevance to me. Besides, it was the major European powers and the US that decided to give the land to the Jews, and before that the Brits owned it.


and it wasn't their ancestors it's current

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