The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

Are you serious? I think you're very ignorant if you truly believe that, especially when our Prime Minister rebuked so-called 'terrorists' and blamed the deaths on them while the Israeli army ravaged Gaza, uttering not a word against the latter, the latter being their close pals. This discussion is way out of your league; go educate yourself and then come back and try again

The trouble is, Hamas run the Gaza strip, and were elected into power there. That is a root cause. There can never be peace if the people don't support peace. There can never be freedom if the people don't support freedom. Peace and freedom are the two main enemies of Hamas.

It's making the point that the deathds in Israel are a natural consequence of war, and not Israel trying to deliberately kill palestinians as a lot of people claim.

It's making the point that the deathds in Israel are a natural consequence of war, and not Israel trying to deliberately kill palestinians as a lot of people claim.

wow. you could not be further from the truth right now.
the 'claim' that israel deliberately kill Palestinians IS the cold harsh truth. there is nothing in the world that can argue against that, nothing - end of.

wow. you could not be further from the truth right now.
the 'claim' that israel deliberately kill Palestinians IS the cold harsh truth. there is nothing in the world that can argue against that, nothing - end of.

The whole issue boils down to this, and some of the people will never support peace until Israel ends its oppression of the Palestinian people, and abides by its obligations to human rights, justice and freedom.

There was plenty of time for Israel to end its oppression of the Palestinian people before 2006. They did not do so. Thus, Hamas's running of the Gaza Strip is most certainly not a root cause, and is rather an effect of driving people to desperation and hopelessness.

Where on earth do you get the idea that vengeance is emphasised so much as all that in the 'Islamic religious mindset'? How facile a generalisation is that

And you suppose the recent escalation in settler attacks on Palestinians plays no significant part in this attack, yes?

Israeli is exerting exactly ZERO efforts towards achievement of peace.

This attack was a direct result of relentless Israeli aggression.

The synagogue murders are an apt and lucid illustration of the Islamic notion of justified Vengeance at it's most vile.

The Synagogue attacks were carried out by the PFLP, who aren't an Islamic group.

The Synagogue attacks were carried out by the PFLP, who aren't an Islamic group.

Are you serious? It's a fact. Read the Qu'ran, listen to news interviews, take a general interest in different cultures and religions and you will form the same conclusion.

In that case, why are the surrounding countries unfree? They were never "oppressed" by Israel.

The surrounding countries are unfree because the people don't believe in freedom.

As it happens, you're speaking of my 'culture'. I can speak the Arabic language and I was raised a Muslim and I can assure you that there is no special emphasis on revenge in Islam or the Quran.

Be that as it may, it is an undeniable fact that it is Netanyahu who is for ever calling for vengeance. He killed the two attackers but that wasn't enough for him: he also arrested their family members and bulldozed their homes. He's now seeking to ease gun restrictions in Israel. He's publicly vowing that people who commit such acts will pay a heavy price. Are you blind?

They were not just 'two Muslims', they were more than that. They were Palestinian Muslims living under oppression and occupation, and they were desperate. If all was fine and dandy for them they would never have resorted to such an act of violence.

I certainly do not think that such an act of violence should be 'outrightly condemned in itself' whatever that means

Does that signify an objective opinion then?



No, my eyesight is fine thanks. Netanyahu is hardcore old school sure, hewn from bitter experience no doubt. The Israelis tolerate no crap without punitive action. They are an island in a sea of ill will. My point was vengeance is part of the Islam way. It is condoned and even sanctified, as it were, in certain instances. In Christianity, Vengeance per se, is never ever a justification of bloodshed. This is because vengeance as a notion is an animal instinct, not a reasonable action, certainly no human virtue.

I'm not going to reply to any future posts of yours reiterating a sad old conviction with no substantiation at all. You told me to 'read the Quran and take an interest in cultures' in order to arrive at the conclusion that Islam sanctifies vengeance. I told you that I have and indeed I am part of these 'cultures' that you referred me to, and you find that unsatisfactory. And I am supposed to believe at once your claim that Christianity never justifies vengeance per se. If you have any evidence to back what you say about 'the Islam way' (gosh, do you realise how uneducated you come across?) by all means do present it. Until you do, I will stick with the facts that I am aware of and which run thus: that though Islam may have a number of Achilles Heels, a sanctification of vengeance certainly is not one of them.


I will take all incidents that occur in context of the wider picture and keep to a sense of perspective, thank you very much.
And oh dear, saying things such as 'Israelis are surrounded by ill will' when the only internationally recognised state in the Middle East upholding the only occupation on the fact of the earth and the only recognised state to be granted full impunity when butchering its neighbours in Gaza to death is Israeli itself is nonsensical gob; all of that only discredits your non-arguments all the more.

Can you provide any evidence of that? If Israel wanted to kill Palestinians tehre would be a lot more dead. The numbers killed right now compared to hostiles killed is typical for war. If there was deliberate targeting of civilians it would be higher.

It's illogical to extrapolate from other countries - the Palestinians have held elections and their current President is a secularist. In the Gaza Strip, Hamas were elected, but considering how close the election was, the logical explanation is not that they don't want freedom, but rather that they've been driven to desperation.

And, in many cases in the Middle East, dictatorships have been actively supported by Israel and its allies, most prominently the United States. In Iran, the democratically elected leader was overthrown by Britain and the United States in 1953, leading to 23 years of a brutal dictator followed by a backlash leading to today's leadership. In Egypt, we supported Hosni Mubarak, and when a leader was democratically elected, he was overthrown in a move supported by Israel and the United States, leading to this dictatorship again. In Iraq, we supported the regime of Saddam Hussein, and supported military coups in that country earlier as well. In Tunisia, we supported Ben-Ali until the people managed to overthrow him and they've recently held a democratic election.

So, yet again, not a very good reason for refusing to end the oppression of the Palestinian people.

Utter nonsense. In the late 1940s, the UN voted to make the Jewish majority areas in the Palestine mandate a Jewish state. How exactly is that unreasonable? That Jewish majority areas shall be ruled according to the democratic will of that majority?