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The Liverpool FC Thread XII

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Original post by JamesR12
Cahill has proved his worth in one on one situations in the CL for ages. His performance vs Messi was vintage.

So basically you're chatting ****. Cahill's one on one performance after Messi tries to get through the two rows of defenders is going to look good if you're any decent defender.

The Balotelli goal was nothing to do with backing off? Regardless, I've seen people run at him and his problems are nothing like Skrtel's.

Yes it did. Cahill simply should have marked him tighter and stopped the ball when he should have got to his man. Cahill is a cover defender not an aggressive stopper while it's best to have a balance between the two Cahill struggles with that Balance while Terry gets it perfectly. He gets a ridiculous amount of cover from the wide players and the DMs so obviously he's going to look like he isn't too bad one on one because he rarely gets put into that situation.

Another example is the adebayor goal 2 years ago.


Cba for the Sterling thing and in general your need to categorise players/burning desire to be able to say they're akin to another player is just not necessary.

So basically you have no argument to this.

If you can't comprehend the simple point that players have similar playing styles and similar issues to each other then there's no point having this conversation. All you say is Cba but if you really had a point you'd have said the point (e.g. like you did with Ramires vs Henderson)
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by The.Joker
Rodgers doesn't have the balls to drop Gerrard especially not now due to our poor form this season and if we were to lose with Gerrard not starting the media and a lot of the fans would be wanting BR's head. I think Gerrard should be dropped since more often than not he doesn't contribute much and at times is a detriment to the team. He's turning 35 at the end of this season as well. Can was solid today in the second half, a few loose balls but apart from that he did well to keep Boyd quiet. I really like the look of Can and I'd like to see him start on Monday night. It'll be interesting to see who we go for in January and in the summer. I hope BR doesn't just buy young talent but rather players who can hit the ground running and immediately improve the team.

Sakho has been injured for most of this season (since the Everton game back in Sept) so that's why he hasn't featured. He looks far more comfortable when playing now which is good to see, he's seemed to have found his feet and settled in this season. Lovren should have been dropped way earlier in favour of Toure whilst Sakho was injured, a player playing with low confidence in a team which is under performing has done nothing to help Lovren settle in. That's BR's fault for forcing the Lovren-Skrtel partnership when it was obvious it wouldn't work out. He's at a club with much bigger expectations and he needs time to get used to it, not his fault for being thrown in the deep end. I think we'll see a resurgence in the second half of the season. Once our defence has a settled back line and Sturridge is back it would be a good time to slowly ease Lovren to partner with Sakho. The time out for Lovren should help him get himself together and hopefully in training he can get used to playing with Sakho. But at the moment I also agree that Skaho and Toure should be the CB pairing, they are so much more composed on the ball and when making challenges.

We bought the three Soton players and Balotelli as 'hit the ground running' players and that went abysmally. Young players aren't an answer either, I'd probably be looking at 23-25 year olds from abroad. I've always liked Can, ever since we were linked and he's been pretty good every time he's played for us, he deserves to play more. Just Rodgers putting his 4 senior (underperforming) midfielders ahead of Can for no reason.

I think Sakho's been fit and still not picked for a while, and him/Rodgers have issues anyway. I think BR was right to persist with Lovren-Skrtel for a while, but he did do it for too long. I don't think the 'big club expectations' thing works for Lovren, I think he was just caught out as not being that good a player, I guess. He's definitely lost confidence even compared to his early season displays, the Dortmund game (that was a ****ing laugh) and the subsequent games up till Spurs. Not sure that even a full confidence Lovren is good enough for us.
Original post by jam277
So basically you're chatting ****. Cahill's one on one performance after Messi tries to get through the two rows of defenders is going to look good if you're any decent defender.


Yes it did. Cahill simply should have marked him tighter and stopped the ball when he should have got to his man. Cahill is a cover defender not an aggressive stopper while it's best to have a balance between the two Cahill struggles with that Balance while Terry gets it perfectly. He gets a ridiculous amount of cover from the wide players and the DMs so obviously he's going to look like he isn't too bad one on one because he rarely gets put into that situation.

Another example is the adebayor goal 2 years ago.



So basically you have no argument to this.

If you can't comprehend the simple point that players have similar playing styles and similar issues to each other then there's no point having this conversation. All you say is Cba but if you really had a point you'd have said the point (e.g. like you did with Ramires vs Henderson)

Cahill was praised as the man that stopped him. Cahill held the defence together after your saviour Terry got himself sent off. Was Bosingwa the other CB or Ivanovic? Cahill again in the CL final. He's definitely a good enough 1 on 1 defender. Not comparable to Martin Skrtel at all. And that's the crux of the point.

You don't understand what 'backing off' means if you think the Balotelli goal was due to it. It has nothing to do with positioning at crosses.

Yeah, the Adebayor goal is probably his fault. The main fault is losing the ball initially - replay doesn't indicate whose fault that was. He should have been one, maybe two yards closer to the ball than he was. But on a breakaway like that where you're outnumbered, a shot from 25 yards is not the end of the world (it's actually a fairly desirable outcome for a defending team) and it's not a giant culpability on his head.

Players of course have similar playing styles. The way that you describe 'Sterling as essentially a slightly better Willian' is silly, because their games are not that close together. And that kind of categorisation is just not necessary lol. Their playing styles aren't that similar. Likewise Ramires and Henderson and likewise Cahill and Skrtel. It's just tedious and tiresome to continue this with you.
Original post by JamesR12
Cahill was praised as the man that stopped him. Cahill held the defence together after your saviour Terry got himself sent off. Was Bosingwa the other CB or Ivanovic? Cahill again in the CL final. He's definitely a good enough 1 on 1 defender. Not comparable to Martin Skrtel at all. And that's the crux of the point.

Bosingwa, surprisingly Bosingwa's CB performances(only a couple) were very good for us. Cahill held a 10 man defence together. Yes of course man.

You don't understand what 'backing off' means if you think the Balotelli goal was due to it. It has nothing to do with positioning at crosses.

Yeah, the Adebayor goal is probably his fault. The main fault is losing the ball initially - replay doesn't indicate whose fault that was. He should have been one, maybe two yards closer to the ball than he was. But on a breakaway like that where you're outnumbered, a shot from 25 yards is not the end of the world (it's actually a fairly desirable outcome for a defending team) and it's not a giant culpability on his head.

I was mentioning backing off as in not getting tight to your man/closing them down the second they're in your zone, unless you mean it as in retreating the second a guy with pace comes.

Luiz is also at fault for the goal for losing the ball after pushing forward and he had to cover at LB but that's not really the point, after that he had filled his position so it went down to Cahill.

Many of our goals come from that right side, either via the fault of Ivanovic or via Cahill(newcastle game), it's why Mourinho initially was using Matic on the left but he now plays as the right sided DM, because he realised that side is weak and Fabregas doesn't offer as great protection there for obvious reasons.

Players of course have similar playing styles. The way that you describe 'Sterling as essentially a slightly better Willian' is silly, because their games are not that close together. And that kind of categorisation is just not necessary lol. Their playing styles aren't that similar. Likewise Ramires and Henderson and likewise Cahill and Skrtel. It's just tedious and tiresome to continue this with you.


What you mean by their games are not that close together? I already explained what they rely on(fast paced directness, versatility across the front line, lack of consistent end product, good dribbling skills and link up).

Cahill and Skrtel have similar problems with backing off, it doesn't look as bad in our system as we like our defenders players to retreat a little(but balance it with tight marking when need be), with you lot I don't know what kinda defensive system you have since you'll have Sakho or Lovren pushing forward for the same ball or Skrtel deciding to sit back/defend zonally. Put Cahill in your defensive system and he'll look suspect, you don't pay 40M on CBs and they all be flops, clearly it's the people in front of them letting them down. Real had the same problem last few seasons.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by jam277
What you mean by their games are not that close together? I already explained what they rely on(fast paced directness, versatility across the front line, lack of consistent end product, good dribbling skills and link up).

Cahill and Skrtel have similar problems with backing off, it doesn't look as bad in our system as we like our defenders players to retreat a little(but balance it with tight marking when need be), with you lot I don't know what kinda defensive system you have since you'll have Sakho or Lovren pushing forward for the same ball or Skrtel deciding to sit back/defend zonally. Put Cahill in your defensive system and he'll look suspect, you don't pay 40M on CBs and they all be flops, clearly it's the people in front of them letting them down. Real had the same problem last few seasons.


Backing off means conceding ground to an attacker rather than attacking the ball. Nothing to do with positioning at crosses.

The midfield is defensively suspect, but it's not just them. It's a combination of factors. The defenders aren't individually good enough (bar Sakho), there is no defensive unit or organisation or tactics from the manager, and repeated individual errors ruin everything. But simple fact of the matter is that Skrtel isn't good enough however you look at it, exposed by his midfield or not - and that his style and game is not comparable to Cahill at all.

'(fast paced directness, versatility across the front line, lack of consistent end product, good dribbling skills and link up)'

Other players who this applies to: Jefferson Montero, Kevin Mirallas, Kuba, Nacer Chadli, Adnan Januzaj, Alex Oxlade Chamberlain, Xherdan Shaqiri, etc, etc, etc. Are all wingers in the world the same, Jam?

It's just ridiculous. Sterling's playing style and game is not 'essentially the same as' Willian's. No more to say on either Skrtel or Sterling from me
https://vine.co/v/OHXtMIrQOaz

Ibe for Derby. Good goal
Original post by JamesR12
Backing off means conceding ground to an attacker rather than attacking the ball. Nothing to do with positioning at crosses.

The midfield is defensively suspect, but it's not just them. It's a combination of factors. The defenders aren't individually good enough (bar Sakho), there is no defensive unit or organisation or tactics from the manager, and repeated individual errors ruin everything. But simple fact of the matter is that Skrtel isn't good enough however you look at it, exposed by his midfield or not - and that his style and game is not comparable to Cahill at all.

Fair enough, I thought it involved marking people tightly/closing them down.

Exactly, but if there's no actual cohesive defensive unit/tactics, how are you going to determine whether a defender is individually good enough? Look at what Pulis did with Crystal Palace, are you trying to seriously say that Delaney is better or on the same level as Skrtel?

Other players who this applies to: Jefferson Montero, Kevin Mirallas, Kuba, Nacer Chadli, Adnan Januzaj, Alex Oxlade Chamberlain, Xherdan Shaqiri, etc, etc, etc. Are all wingers in the world the same, Jam?

Well depending on how you look at it yes. Also there are different types of wingers so to say "Are all wingers in the world the same, Jam?" is a misleading comment. Mirallas is not a playmaker type winger e.g. and same for Kuba. I don't watch Swansea to make an opinion on Montero. Januzaj is not as direct or as fast as Willian or Sterling. I would put Chamberlain in that category.

It's just ridiculous. Sterling's playing style and game is not 'essentially the same as' Willian's. No more to say on either Skrtel or Sterling from me

So basically you said that a bunch of players similar to them in order to invalidate an argument, I could have used another player as a comparison to those two but I decided to use Willian because he's somebody I watch regularly as well as Sterling.
(edited 9 years ago)
I can't be arsed to get in the debate proper but I'd say that "backing off" as a style of defending in itself is very vague isn't in itself a problem. Its how its done that is the issue. Rio at his peak was a master of just letting the attacker run and run, narrowing their options as they go. But its knowing when to step up and how to step up that is the issue. Small detail in the style which is going to separate good from bad, but can obviously be covered or exacerbated by style of the team and partner.

I wouldn't actually blame Cahill for the Ade goal at all, the main threat there is to strike before the defence is set so I can see why they are keen to get deep and that line established. 9/10 Ade misses that or Cech saves, and he's hardly a Gerrard who you'd back to have a go from there.
Original post by Fizzel
I can't be arsed to get in the debate proper but I'd say that "backing off" as a style of defending in itself is very vague isn't in itself a problem. Its how its done that is the issue. Rio at his peak was a master of just letting the attacker run and run, narrowing their options as they go. But its knowing when to step up and how to step up that is the issue. Small detail in the style which is going to separate good from bad, but can obviously be covered or exacerbated by style of the team and partner.

I wouldn't actually blame Cahill for the Ade goal at all, the main threat there is to strike before the defence is set so I can see why they are keen to get deep and that line established. 9/10 Ade misses that or Cech saves, and he's hardly a Gerrard who you'd back to have a go from there.

Backing off is a part of defending and a crucial one, of course. No-one wants a rush-of-blood defender that dives into every challenge. The issue is that Skrtel only knows how to back off, and doesn't step up/attack the ball AT ALL. It makes him an extremely poor defender and incapable of forming a decent partnership with virtually anyone. Running at Liverpool on the counter is almost a guaranteed goal.

As I said to Jam, as the defending team losing the ball in that position, you would take a 25 yard shot conceded and Cahill does little wrong. Cahill could have been one or two yards closer though and technically it is his man.
Original post by jam277
Fair enough, I thought it involved marking people tightly/closing them down.

Exactly, but if there's no actual cohesive defensive unit/tactics, how are you going to determine whether a defender is individually good enough? Look at what Pulis did with Crystal Palace, are you trying to seriously say that Delaney is better or on the same level as Skrtel?

Well depending on how you look at it yes. Also there are different types of wingers so to say "Are all wingers in the world the same, Jam?" is a misleading comment. Mirallas is not a playmaker type winger e.g. and same for Kuba. I don't watch Swansea to make an opinion on Montero. Januzaj is not as direct or as fast as Willian or Sterling. I would put Chamberlain in that category.


Even within systems, players shine and others don't. And some shine because the system hides their deficiencies, but others shine because they're good all round. The issue with Skrtel's inability to attack the ball isn't our system, or the relative lack of protection - it's Skrtel's upbringing as a defender. It's what he's been programmed to do from a young age. And it's a somewhat fatal flaw in his game. It's been a recurring theme of his time here. As far back as 2010-11 I can remember Skrtel backing off needlessly and letting Carlton ****ing Cole run at us from miles out and score from inside the area. (and you could suggest that we alter our system to sit deep and compact and prevent people from running at him but that's not the way of a progressive, attacking team/Rodgers' Liverpool)

You can't just come out and say 'he's not a playmaker winger' - they have all the attributes that you just described. It's a weak rebuttal. You just now put Sterling and Chambelain in the same category, when anyone who's watched either of them know how far apart their games are. They don't have a similar style at all.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by JamesR12
That's just a bit of a nothing statement - it's widely acknowledged that the 'spine' of the team, being your GK, CBs, DM/CMs and strikers are the most important positions... so all you're saying is that a good DM is more important than good full backs and good wingers. Which is nothing new?

Top teams eg Madrid don't play with a typical DM at they're on a 20+ game win streak, Arsenal have been consistent at the top tier for the best part of the decade without a quality DM and weaker teams like Soton do have a top class DM so it's not really like 'good DM and only a good DM = having a top team'. Key position for sure but no more so than striker or centre backs. I'd argue both of those are more important, and maybe goalkeeper too if you look at how De Gea has earned United 10 or more points this year and how important Courtois was for Atletico.


So essentially what you're doing here is berating a fellow fan for a "nothing statement", followed by making several of your own?

10/10

:smile:
Original post by JamesR12
Backing off is a part of defending and a crucial one, of course. No-one wants a rush-of-blood defender that dives into every challenge. The issue is that Skrtel only knows how to back off, and doesn't step up/attack the ball AT ALL. It makes him an extremely poor defender and incapable of forming a decent partnership with virtually anyone. Running at Liverpool on the counter is almost a guaranteed goal.
Yeah, that obviously when it comes an issue. Evans at United is the same, however his is an issue of confidence and strength as well. Evans did previously however form a decent partnership with both of Rio and Vidic, who both are more commanding, yet alongside Smalling or Jones he's hopeless. I think there comes a point though where, you can't chose player and a system just to cover one players deficiencies.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by JamesR12
Even within systems, players shine and others don't. And some shine because the system hides their deficiencies, but others shine because they're good all round. The issue with Skrtel's inability to attack the ball isn't our system, or the relative lack of protection - it's Skrtel's upbringing as a defender. It's what he's been programmed to do from a young age. And it's a somewhat fatal flaw in his game. It's been a recurring theme of his time here.

So what and like I said Cahill's lack of attacking the ball is a recurring theme of his time at Chelsea. You already mention the system point, I mention Cahill's system point making him look better than he is.

As far back as 2010-11 I can remember Skrtel backing off needlessly and letting Carlton ****ing Cole run at us from miles out and score from inside the area. (and you could suggest that we alter our system to sit deep and compact and prevent people from running at him but that's not the way of a progressive, attacking team/Rodgers' Liverpool)

It's not the style of play he prefers, therefore he's going to look **** in your system which is already terrible as it is it's that simple. You adapt to your team and that fault lies under Rodgers, not under Skrtel. See how David Luiz gets dropped at CB by Mourinho because we decided to play deeper and contain the opposition. You adapt to the players you've got and Rodgers hasn't done that which doesn't help Skrtel at all.

You can't just come out and say 'he's not a playmaker winger' - they have all the attributes that you just described. It's a weak rebuttal. You just now put Sterling and Chambelain in the same category, when anyone who's watched either of them know how far apart their games are. They don't have a similar style at all.

They have a similar style, Chamberlain is a bit more powerful in his runs and Sterling is a bit more acute and agile, likes to make a few more runs in behind the defence but they are similar. Doesn't make my point less valid.
Original post by jam277
So what and like I said Cahill's lack of attacking the ball is a recurring theme of his time at Chelsea. You already mention the system point, I mention Cahill's system point making him look better than he is.

It's not the style of play he prefers, therefore he's going to look **** in your system which is already terrible as it is it's that simple. You adapt to your team and that fault lies under Rodgers, not under Skrtel. See how David Luiz gets dropped at CB by Mourinho because we decided to play deeper and contain the opposition. You adapt to the players you've got and Rodgers hasn't done that which doesn't help Skrtel at all.


They have a similar style, Chamberlain is a bit more powerful in his runs and Sterling is a bit more acute and agile, likes to make a few more runs in behind the defence but they are similar. Doesn't make my point less valid.

Skrtel will look **** in any style of play, and Sterling/Chamberlain aren't similar styles at all. Bye Jam
Original post by Fizzel
Yeah, that obviously when it comes an issue. Evans at United is the same, however his is an issue of confidence and strength as well. Evans did previously however form a decent partnership with both of Rio and Vidic, who both are more commanding, yet alongside Smalling or Jones he's hopeless. I think there comes a point though where, you can't chose player and a system just to cover one players deficiencies.


Well to be fair, he was young then, so an experienced head like Rio/Vidic might have helped him with a lot more than just when to back off or not (confidence, as you mentioned, positioning and decision making). And wrt to Skrtel, it's not about 'there comes a point' - in this league/in a team challenging for top places, Skrtel is always deficient.
What we need in January:

- Cech.
- A defensive coach.
- An overhaul of the backroom staff.
Original post by Mackay
What we need in January:

- Cech.
- A defensive coach.
- An overhaul of the backroom staff.


- New manager

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Mackay
What we need in January:
- A defensive coach.
- An overhaul of the backroom staff.
You're just pointing blame at everyone other than the main man. All that is just an alternative to confronting the failures of the manager. Not to mention even if those areas are deficient, it's again Rodgers fault because it's not like he rocked up yesterday.


Posted from TSR Mobile
Torres back to Atletico by the way.
Original post by Mackay
Torres back to Atletico by the way.


Are you sure? I thought he just signed a permanent deal with Milan ?

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