Mumbling

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I didn't say it was always true or true for you. I do think it self-explanatory that louder people will more often be more vain and speak more to attract attention than to contribute meaningfully, for example.

Not consistent with my experiences... sometimes the quiet ones resort to speaking (if you could call it that) to get attention simply because of the loud and vain people dominating the conversation.

Reply 21

Birkenhead

Original post by Sir Peter Rabbit

Hence the 'if only'.

Yes...it rejected what I said without explaining. I was offering some pre-emptive clarification if you did so on either of those bases.

Reply 22

Birkenhead

Original post by Lord A

Not consistent with my experiences... sometimes the quiet ones resort to speaking (if you could call it that) to get attention simply because of the loud and vain people dominating the conversation.

Most people are not so pathetic as to want attention simply for the sake of it, and this is especially true for quiet people who more often than others shy away from the limelight.

The vast majority of 'quiet' people do have the physical capacity to be louder. It's not as if in almost all cases their vocal cords are actually significantly less capable of producing noise as others. It is instead almost always a result of indifference, active dislike, or active fear of others and/or being noticed and heard. This is inconsistent with the sort of person you describe making up any significant number of quiet people.

Much more straightforward is the idea that louder people will often actively enjoy attention, and therefore that a greater number of them will speak to be heard and not for the sake of contributing meaningfully.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 23

Lord A

Original post by Birkenhead

no points for guessing which side of the fence you sit on

the bold is equally pathetic imo

Reply 24

Birkenhead

Original post by Lord A

no points for guessing which side of the fence you sit on

the bold is equally pathetic imo

Pardon? You'll have to explain...you seem to be making some sort of slight against me for no reason. Is it unreasonable to describe attention-seeking for the sake of attention as pathetic?

Reply 25

Lord A

Original post by Birkenhead

Pardon? You'll have to explain...you seem to be making some sort of slight against me for no reason. Is it unreasonable to describe attention-seeking for the sake of attention as pathetic?

No. It's equally pathetic for someone not to speak out of perceived fear unless there is a serious danger of course. You appear to be saying people who are loud are always vain however; this just isn't true, some people actually enjoy conversation.

Reply 26

Lord A

Original post by Birkenhead

Yes, I would agree...you seem to be disagreeing with an opinion I haven't expressed.

Maybe I misinterpreted; it looks like you were saying quiet people are victims to loud stupidity; which is sometimes true; however in actuality there's nothing wrong with enjoying conversation, and not everyone who is loud is attention seeking.

Reply 27

funktofunky

Yes all the time. I hate it because I feel like it is holding me back socially. Also I have no idea that I am doing it until someone tells me to speak up or stop mumbling.

Reply 28

Birkenhead

Original post by Lord A

I never said these things. Might I suggest re-reading my posts.

I misread what you were referring to. I think to characterise quietness out of indifference, dislike of attention or fear, such as social anxiety, as 'pathetic' rocks between intolerance for difference and simple callousness.

To desire attention for the sake of it is often pathetic; it suggests an excessive dependency on other people which is not caused by illness or some serious mental problem. To desire going unnoticed is not pathetic because it is either motivated by a perfectly healthy internal disposition or mental health problems.

Reply 29

Lord A

Original post by Birkenhead

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependent_personality_disorder

Reply 30

Birkenhead

Original post by Lord A

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dependent_personality_disorder

Why have you linked me to this Wikipedia page?

You do not make for a particularly satisfying debating partner.

Reply 31

Lord A

Original post by Birkenhead

Why have you linked me to this Wikipedia page?

"
To desire attention for the sake of it is often pathetic; it suggests an excessive dependency on other people which is not caused by illness or some serious mental problem."

Except excessive dependency is a personality disorder recognised by most classifications as a mental illness.

I had no idea we were debating to be honest

Or there's this one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histrionic_personality_disorder

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 32

Birkenhead

Original post by Lord A

I had no idea we were debating to be honest

Looking back, perhaps you're right. You don't seem to respond to much of my posts and, even then, the responses are rather skeletal.

Reply 33

Lord A

Original post by Birkenhead

The personality disorder you have cited occurs in 0.5% of the population. Have a look for yourself. The vast majority of casual social dependency does not meet disorder level, so my point stands that attention-seeking is generally simply patheticness of character and not mitigated by legitimate mental illness.

Looking back, perhaps you're right. You don't seem to respond to much of my posts and, even then, the responses are rather skeletal.

Double standards. Shyness is a completely genetic trait as well right and all shy people are pathetic because of mental illness?

Would you look at that
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoidant_personality_disorder
"according to the DSM-IV-TR, avoidant personality disorder occurs in approximately 0.1% to 0.5% of the general population"

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 34

Birkenhead

Original post by Lord A

Double standards. Shyness is a completely genetic trait as well right and all shy people are pathetic because of mental illness?

Are you drunk? There is no coherency to your posts. The standards are not double because one fulfils the same criteria as the other fails to. Shyness is definitely not completely a genetic trait, though I don't see how that would relate to your argument. We're not talking about whether shy and loud people are pathetic, we're talking about whether attention seeking and attention avoiding are pathetic. I have previously explained why one is often pathetic and the other is not but you failed to properly respond to my distinctions.

Reply 35

Lord A

Original post by Birkenhead

No I can follow your reasoning fine, although the nice use of the rhetorical question to hide your fallacious reasoning was a nice childish touch.

Shy people are shy because of mental illness.
Loud people are loud because of need for attention.

It's bs and not supported by empirical evidence.

Reply 36

Birkenhead

Original post by Lord A

What is the relevance of this? I have not referred to avoidant personality disorder once. It seems that you have fallen into the Google trap of taking many fairly innocuous personality characteristics and mistakenly diagnosing them as rare mental illnesses.

Reply 37

Lord A

Original post by Birkenhead

This is what you did. You were attributing shyness to mental illness, when desire for attention can be linked to mental illness as well.

Reply 38

Birkenhead

Original post by Lord A

No I can follow your reasoning fine, although the nice use of the rhetorical question to hide your fallacious reasoning was a nice childish touch.

If you want to be taken seriously you're going to have to explain what you find fallacious in my reasoning. Otherwise it just comes across as a cheap attempt to discredit your opponent with no substance behind it.

Shy people are shy because of mental illness.
Loud people are loud because of need for attention.

It's bs and not supported by empirical evidence.

Once again, you clearly need to re-visit my posts, unless you are deliberately misrepresenting them (in which case - job done).

What we were discussing was attention-seeking. You have argued in defence of attention-seeking saying that quietness is just as pathetic. I responded by disagreeing on the basis that shyness is causes by either indifference, dislike of attention or mental ill health. Just under 20% of people, for example, suffer from social anxiety. None of these reasons can reasonably be described as 'pathetic'.

Desiring attention for the sake of it is more often motivated by simple weakness of character than a disorder that affects 0.5% of the population. We all know the type of person who revels in being centre stage and drawing all lights on them. It is a dependent behaviour that is only rarely caused by mental illness and most of the time worthy of the descriptor 'pathetic'.

It is a clear argument free of fallacy and I cannot understand why you are reacting with such bitter hostility towards it.

Reply 39

Birkenhead

Original post by Lord A

This is what you did. You were attributing shyness to mental illness, when desire for attention can be linked to mental illness as well.

You are completely misrepresenting my argument on multiple levels.

I gave three possible reasons for quietness, two of which were unrelated to mental illness. I did not specify which mental illnesses these might be and I certainly did not cite APD. As I have demonstrated above, social anxiety is one example that affects almost 20% of people.

It need hardly be said that the 0.5% of people who suffer from DPD barely cut a whisker on this example alone. You have only helped me to evidence that attention-seeking behaviours are almost always not the result of mental illness - I certainly know more people who attention-seek than that half-percentage point is representative of.

Attention-seeking can be the result of mental illness - it usually isn't, and is usually therefore a pathetic way to behave. Quietness is often the result of mental illness, or else social apathy, or else healthy aversion, all three of which cannot fairly be similarly described.

That is why I disagreed with your view that quietness is no less pathetic than attention-seeking.