'I don't need feminism because...'

Thank you. I am also a big fan of how you managed to retain your logical and composed state of mind even in the face of aggressive attacks. It can sometimes be very tempting to stoop to others' levels, especially during such a heated debate on a controversial issue.

Personally I think we should bin terms like feminist (not at all disregarding what some feminists have done to progress equality) considering that we are at a point now where there are clear, indisputable issues for both genders that need to be addressed.

One of my first doubts about the meaning of feminism surfaced in Sociology, when my teacher told me men couldn't be feminists, because "problems were worse for women". I completely blanked at that, it completely excludes an entire gender.

There is no confusion or bias or misconceptions with gender equality. It is what it is. For too long it seems on this issue of gender equality that it's almost men vs. women, when we should be hand in hand.

Do you want me to just ignore the huge pay gap (which does exist, most notably in the US), and the fact that women are 9x more likely to be raped than a male? Are these not disadvantages? I could list lots more if you like.

does it really matter, they're still aiming for equality, not claiming supremacy?

It's hard to make things equal in a world of instability, so they focus on the woman's side of it and try to overcome the more extreme things which need attending to. It's like people who try to overcome racism, they're not one-sided, they just recognise for instance that it's more valuable to minimise the pay gap by increasing the wages of people of colour to match that of whites, rather than put their efforts into smaller things like promoting the fact that white people can be rappers too.

I know it'd be near impossible to eradicate any sort of discrepancies between the genders, but I think it's fairly obvious that women are at a greater disadvantage overall, and it isn't helping that people have this negative narrow-minded view about feminism without really knowing what it means. Anyone who doesn't believe in equality is a fool in my opinion, and if people can't see that the only way for a disadvantaged group to even approach equality is by advocating their rights then they're just silly.

Women got the right to vote because somebody advocated women's rights, not because women were like "ooh men and women both have inequalities ooh so lets allow women to actually have tea parties without their husbands permission and then to make it fair we'll let men wear make-up too without prejudice". See what I mean? Sometimes the bigger issues need to be focussed on and addressed, even if on the surface it does seem one-sided.

And the pay gap, I mean that's a pretty important issue (at least in the US) so I think that's a thing to focus on in particular, and things on that scale is mostly what feminism is all about, it's not just about letting girls not shave their arms, it's about objective inequality which can be measured.

I don't see why feminism and men's rights people can't go hand in hand, like one group can focus on teaching boys that it doesn't matter what a girl is wearing because it isn't a mixed message f she says 'no' no matter how short her skirt and you can just learn to control yourself because rape is only a woman's fault if she is doing the raping likewise it's only a man's fault if he is the rapist, and the other can help men see that they don't all need to spend their weekend at the gym, just like how not all girls have to perfect liquid eyeliner to please people. But without the advocacy of anybody's rights, those right's won't be won.

Men commit the vast majority of crimes, and particularly violent crimes.

The vast majority of men are straight.

Therefore it is neither sexist, nor an indication of a 'rape epidemic culture' that women are sexually assaulted in much higher numbers than men.

Also worth noting that men are much more likely to be physically assaulted than women are to be sexually assaulted - but you don't see constant refrains about 'assault culture' or plaintive cries about victim blaming nonsense on that topic.

Bad, violent criminals will always exist and they will always be mostly male. For men, this means they will always be at risk of physical assault; for women, they will always be at risk of sexual assault. The sooner they get over that and accept it, the better for their own sakes.

[video="youtube;8EK6Y1X_xa4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EK6Y1X_xa4[/video]

You mean that pay gap that arises as a consequence to a woman's choices? I see.

On the rape thing: that's a startling statistic, but 9X0 is still 0.

you realise without feminism a woman wouldn't even be able to vote for a party, let alone stand up for parliament? So that's one half of the population barred on account of their gender anyway :')

You say women have a greater disadvantage overall, why? Women's issues are worse for women and men's issues are worse for men, therefore it is (as I have already said) subjective. We feel more strongly about issues that immediately affect us. Therefore we can not compare it at all.
What you are suggesting is not equality. If it were, you would have no problem with what I had stated.

Like when a man has a long sexual history, he's the man but if a female did the reverse she's a whore.
When a man takes charge, he's the man, but when a woman takes charge, she's bossy, she's a bitch etc. Things like that.

There is sometimes an underlying claim of supremacy in what some feminists say-- sometimes. I do not believe however, that all feminists are like this. Not at all. I do however believe that in the movement of feminism, women are almost completely focussed on, which I think is very retrogressive.

I get the gist of what you are trying to put across, but I disagree.

From the comparisons you have drawn, this is what I have concluded:


This is just another clear example of feminists (assuming you are one) minimising men's issues. So you are saying, the fact that according to English law, men cannot be raped, is not a massive issue?

You say women have a greater disadvantage overall, why? Women's issues are worse for women and men's issues are worse for men, therefore it is (as I have already said) subjective. We feel more strongly about issues that immediately affect us. Therefore we can not compare it at all.
What you are suggesting is not equality. If it were, you would have no problem with what I had stated.

women are 9x more likely to be raped than a male

On the rape thing: that's a startling statistic, but 9X0 is still 0.

I don't think anyone's disputing the good feminism has done in the past.

Believe me, as a man, I would never want to trade places in society with a woman. And I don't know a soul who would. Our issues are not real issues, they just serve to distract from the real conversation. The fact that I can not proudly cry or hold my male friends hand in public is really not the same as the misogyny women claim to endure. I can acknowledge that. And I know it's true, which is why I would never want to exchange gender roles with women.

No, and I admit in my example I was a little biased because it's very late and I couldn't think off the top of my head anything better.



I can't really explain :s

And when a woman decides to remain a virgin she's pure and desirable, but if a guy does he's a weirdo or a loser.
When a woman cries/shows emotions she's a normal person with emotions, if a guy does he's not a 'real man' or a sissy etc.
I've said this before, these are issues of gender inequality, not female oppression. The very fact thst you're recognising and pointing out the disadvantages to women, but completely ignoring the bias against men sums up feminism.

That's great for you, but when did you become the representative for an entire gender? Just because you think men's issues are trivial, that does not by any means mean that all men think this.

It is very easy to use examples that assist your opinion, which you have done in this case in an attempt to trivialise men's issues.

No, and I admit in my example I was a little biased because it's very late and I couldn't think off the top of my head anything better. I acknowledge that men can be raped, something this guy doesn't:






and I know it's a huge issue, which is why I think it needs to be treated as separate because otherwise -

if people are like "men have disadvantages and so do women" and that frame of mind becomes common, we run the risk of thinking that both genders are equl and so we might just come complacent and not bother advocating anyone's rights because "we're all equal after all so lets just allow 90% of rapes to have female victims, because afterall the minority of rape victims are male and those men can't charge their attackers with proper rape so that balances out the fact that a women has one in six chance of getting sexually assaulted".

Again with that last point I'm aware I was being somewhat biased again, but I can't help but feel that every inequality that men face, women encounter that same aspect but a little more severe, whereas a lot of disadvantages women have aren't reciprocated in the male world.


But I'll forget about that for a moment, lets just assume that both genders have an equal number of equally-sized inequalities: I still can't see why a group of people can't advocate the rights of 50% of the population while another group does the same for the other, ultimately aiming towards the same goal - equality.

Though in my opinion, after endless research and looking at the statistics, many of the largest, most prominent issues are with women as the sufferers, and I think it's really important that these issues are focussed on.

Another example, gay rights. Millions of people were protesting to allow gay marriage, but why weren't they advocating straight rights too? Like how straight men's masculinity is mocked when they wear make-up? Or protests for the rights of people of colour when white people face discrimination too. It's ridiculous for every single group out there that advocates rights for a specific demographic to just lose focus on their group, because then nothing would get done. What I'm saying is, women do face inequality in certain aspects of their lives, and I don't see why people can't have the aim to change that. I donate to WWF, but I can't spread myself thin and donate to BHF, macmillan, oxfam and all this other stuff too. I'm focussing on the issues which are important to me, because I know that there's somebody else donating to all these other charities.



I can't really explain :s

It's that trivial that MRA actually started out as satire. A little food for thought.

x

And when a woman decides to remain a virgin she's pure and desirable, but if a guy does he's a weirdo or a loser.
When a woman cries/shows emotions she's a normal person with emotions, if a guy does he's not a 'real man' or a sissy etc.
I've said this before, these are issues of gender inequality, not female oppression. The very fact thst you're recognising and pointing out the disadvantages to women, but completely ignoring the bias against men sums up feminism.