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Original post by viddy9
Hamas has stopped the attacks on numerous occasions. The Gaza War of 2008-09 and the recent 2014 conflict were both started by Israel breaking the ceasefire which Hamas had held. Hamas can barely attack Israel now

Then what's it offering? It wants Israel to drop the blockade so it can replenish its missile stocks - does it really surprise you Israel isn't wild about this idea?

The most sensible solution would be to annex the Gaza Strip to Egypt, a country that is strong enough both to stop Israel from attacking the Strip without provocation, and to crush HAMAS if it tries to attack Israel.

and any two-state solution which will be agreed upon with what you call a "paper government" won't change that, if, indeed, Hamas even do want to attack Israel by that time.

I'm less confident in this scenario but I'm still not convinced by your notion that a two-state solution couldn't be agreed upon if it weren't for Israeli rejectionism. However, as I've said, I'm more confident in a scenario that incorporates non-violent resistance.

I don't think either side is uniquely obstructionist. I think both sides have a price. There will be a deal with those prices converge. However, it seems to me that right now the Palestinians aren't prepared to offer anything at all. Accepting that the other party in the negotiations actually exists in a basic legal sense is not a concession, it is just a prerequisite of having talks at all.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Sic semper erat
Ukraine is a sovereign country with recognized borders. The West Bank was never part of a country, so I wouldn't make too much comparison. In fact Google maps doesn't even recognize the 1949 lines (or pre-1967 lines) as borders, but as a ceasefire line.


I don't know why you're of the opinion that Google Maps is the authority on international politics (aside for the fact that it's sometimes different in different countries), but it shows the pre-1967 lines with a dotted line, as it does with the Serbia-Kosovo and Georgia-Abkhazia borders, among others.

Okay. But the IDF ended up in the West Bank after Jordan started shelling Jerusalem on the second day of the 6 Day War


In response to the Israeli attack on their ally Egypt.

and until 1988 the dispute was with Jordan. The Palestinians were nobodys back in the day.


I don't see why this matters. Succession of states and claims can work that way. As an analogy, suppose Norway had invaded and occupied Orkney and Shetland, and later Scotland became independent. Orkney and Shetland would subsequently be considered as occupied Scottish territory, not occupied British territory.

Also, as I've said before on this thread, there is a precedent for the Palestinian situation: Namibia had never existed as an independent state with recognised borders prior to 1990 - before South African control the previous authorities had been the German colonial ones. Nevertheless, it was regarded (from the late 1960s) as an illegal South African occupation of Namibian territory.
Original post by anarchism101
I don't know why you're of the opinion that Google Maps is the authority on international politics (aside for the fact that it's sometimes different in different countries), but it shows the pre-1967 lines with a dotted line, as it does with the Serbia-Kosovo and Georgia-Abkhazia borders, among others.

In response to the Israeli attack on their ally Egypt.

I don't see why this matters. Succession of states and claims can work that way. As an analogy, suppose Norway had invaded and occupied Orkney and Shetland, and later Scotland became independent. Orkney and Shetland would subsequently be considered as occupied Scottish territory, not occupied British territory.

Also, as I've said before on this thread, there is a precedent for the Palestinian situation: Namibia had never existed as an independent state with recognised borders prior to 1990 - before South African control the previous authorities had been the German colonial ones. Nevertheless, it was regarded (from the late 1960s) as an illegal South African occupation of Namibian territory.


Google maps calls it the "1949 Armistice Agreement Line". Its a ceasefire line and if you read about it in Wikipedia, you'll see that Israel and Jordan agreed that this line is not to be considered an international border.

Egypt's blockade of the Strait of Tiran and getting rid of UN forces in the Sinai and deploying tanks there was an act of war. Also Israel informed Jordan that if they don't attack, nor will Israel. Sorry but all I'm saying is there's context to Israel's presence in the West Bank. The Palestinian issue is a lot more recent as much as they deny it.

The West Bank by definition is occupied, but that doesn't give any moral or legal right to establish a 23rd Arab state there either which we all know will go to war with Israel in the first day of its independence.
Original post by Jammy Duel
The thing is, several of the things aren't investigated by Israel because they think there is nothing wrong, the likes of their West Bank settlements, then you do have to question whether they really do investigate what they say they do. Then you get some of the potentially questionable military actions seen as legitimate strategy and there are very much things that could be raised against Israel. No doubt there will then be cases against Palestinian factions, but assuming things go as the Palestinians hope, despite the inevitable cases against them, they will all in all ultimately ''win"

Posted from TSR Mobile


I doubt the Palestinians will win. In fact they are digging their own graves by messing with Israel in the ICC, and i'll tell you why. The ICC exercises its jurisdiction over all acts committed by the citizen of a member state, wherever those acts are committed. from the date the state was granted membership.

Which state am I talking about? Jordan, which joined the ICC in 2002. Let's not forget that PLO members are Jordanian citizens. This means that Palestinians leaders can and will be tried for terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens and human rights violations of Palestinians dating back to 2002, which ironically is when the Second Intifada took place and 1000+ Israelis were killed by suicide bombings.

Israel on the other hand, can only be indicted for deeds done from the day the Palestinian Authority joined the Rome Statute, which was last week.

This will be a bigger loss for the Palestinians than a failed vote in the UN Security Council.
Original post by R£SP£CT
What History book have you been reading? From the early 1900s there was a populace consisted of roughly several hundred thousands of Palestinians, of which roughly 80% were non Jewish. When Britain captured Palestine this too was the case demographically.


The Jews living in that area wore keffiyehs and referred to themselves as Palestinians before the Arabs ever claimed to be Palestinian.


If you knew anything about the history of that region, you would know that the great grandfathers of today's "Palestinians" would never have called themselves Palestinians, they would have been Egyptian or they would have been Syrian and both Syria and Egypt have their own countries already.
Original post by Sic semper erat
Google maps calls it the "1949 Armistice Agreement Line". Its a ceasefire line and if you read about it in Wikipedia, you'll see that Israel and Jordan agreed that this line is not to be considered an international border.


At the time, yes, but subsequent resolutions, agreements, rulings and recognitions have affirmed the line as something more than that. As an analogy,the border between the two Koreas was officially just a ceasefire line; both sides still only recognise it as such and claim the entire territory of the other. However, everyone else recognises two Koreas with the 'ceasefire line' as the border.

Egypt's blockade of the Strait of Tiran and getting rid of UN forces in the Sinai and deploying tanks there was an act of war.


Having troops in your own territory is not an act of war by any stretch. It would potentially justify an Israeli pre-emptive attack if Nasser had been planning to attack, but he wasn't and the Israeli government and IDF knew it.

As for the Straits, there's slightly more of a controversy there (while there's quite a strong case that the closure was illegal, that's a rather different thing to it being an act of war), and in fact Nasser did offer to refer the case to the ICJ. The Israelis turned down the offer.

Also Israel informed Jordan that if they don't attack, nor will Israel.


So?

Sorry but all I'm saying is there's context to Israel's presence in the West Bank.


Even if we accept the Israeli narrative of the occupied territories supposedly being taken in self-defence, that wouldn't justify how it regards the West Bank. It would warrant an occupation somewhat like the US occupation of Japan after WW2. Instead, Israel regards the West Bank (and to a large extent, Golan, as well as Sinai and Gaza as well in the past) effectively as morally their territory that for practical reasons cannot be officially incorporated into the state proper.

The Palestinian issue is a lot more recent as much as they deny it.


The Palestinian militant groups were fighting the Jordanian government as early as 1968, While it's true that in many ways the early phase of the conflict was characterised bu the Palestinians seeing themselves as part of a pan-Arab nation, whereas the later conflict saw the prominence of a more distinct Palestinian identity, I don't really see why this matters.

The West Bank by definition is occupied, but that doesn't give any moral or legal right to establish a 23rd Arab state there


No, that right derives from other sources.

either which we all know will go to war with Israel in the first day of its independence.


Melodramatic nonsense.
Dear President Obama,

I am 14 and live in the Palestinian Sheikh Jarrah neighbourhood in East Jerusalem. Almost four years ago my family and I were evicted from part of our home by Israeli settlers, backed by Israeli court decisions. The process has made life almost unbearable for me and tens of thousands of Palestinians. Settlers are working towards Jewish control of all of East Jerusalem, at times using violence against Palestinians.

This was once a beautiful neighbourhood. Everybody was so close, and before part of my house was evicted, I was never afraid of going to sleep. We used to have no worries. Now it doesn't feel like a Palestinian neighbourhood any more. All the signs are in Hebrew, and the music too.

The people who've been evicted have lost financially and emotionally. My father has stopped going to work for almost a year, because it was so crowded and dangerous and every day there was tension and violence, so he couldn't just leave us alone in the house with the settlers. The little kids wet their beds. My sister couldn't sleep. The settlers have a dog in our house and every time it went past, she wet herself.

This thing that happened tore us apart. We were one big family, and now everyone lives in a different city. We are extremely uncomfortable and uncertain about what is going to happen here. Children my age and much younger are regularly arrested, interrogated and beaten by Israeli police, and violently attacked by settlers. For most of my life I have felt unsafe and threatened in my own neighbourhood and even in my own home.

Mr President, you have the power to change that. The most simple thing you could do is see our situation for yourself and speak out about it, to see the reality and talk about what you see. It's not like you don't know what's happening here. I'm sure you know everything.

On this trip I hope that you will speak out against the Israeli government's role in supporting the settlers and pressure the Israeli government to change its policies. US military aid to Israel is used directly against unarmed Palestinian demonstrators. I hope in the future you will stop giving military aid to support Israel's illegal occupation of my people.

I also hope that in the future justice will return to the people. I hope the world will begin to speak out against the oppression we face in my neighbourhood and [the oppression] against all Palestinians. That you and others will not remain silent while our homes are taken, children are arrested and injured, and our future threatened.

Mr President, we want our houses back. And our pre-1948 land. It's not fair what's happening here, and most of the world doesn't realise it. So if I had one wish I would get everyone's rights back. From a little ball they stole from a boy in the street to a big farm they stole from a grandfather
Are Palestinians still trying to kill Israeli civilians in rocket attacks?

That's 14 years now israeli civilians have lived under threat of random indiscriminate attacks.
Reply 6348
Dear Mr. Palestinian,

Are you a registered voter in any swing states?

If not, not a **** is given this day.

Kind regards,

Barack.
Nothing is going to change so long as the scum that are Hamas and Netanyahu are in charge. These are not reasonable people who are open to dialogue.
Original post by MatureStudent36
Are Palestinians still trying to kill Israeli civilians in rocket attacks?

That's 14 years now israeli civilians have lived under threat of random indiscriminate attacks.


i.e. 34 years fewer than the Palestinians have lived under Israeli occupation.

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by tengentoppa
Nothing is going to change so long as the scum that are Hamas and Netanyahu are in charge. These are not reasonable people who are open to dialogue.


I'd say the same about Israel.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
I'd say the same about Israel.


I havent seen many israeli suicide bombers in operation in the area
The Obama administration for the first time is encouraging congress to cut aid to the Palestinian Authority. This should be interesting.
Original post by MatureStudent36
I havent seen many israeli suicide bombers in operation in the area


No just Israeli fighter jets, bulldozers and everything else, wake up.
(edited 9 years ago)
Nice letter but a waste of time.

Nothing will change and Obama doesn't have the power to do so
Settlements are a consequence of the current situation. If you don't want your civilians to suffer, don't send people to stab Israeli civilians or to explode in a bus. Don't launch missiles at the population of the country. Don't anger the bigger one because it will always win.
I pity this 14 year-old. He/she has no guilt for what his/her parent's generation has done, but, unfortunately, pity does not make a country safe.
Let me say that although I support Israel I also support human rights. What is happening to many Palestinians is unfair. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as fair in conflict. If the Palestinians want this whole thing to stop, it is time they decide if they really want a terrorist organisation governing them.
Original post by MatureStudent36
I havent seen many israeli suicide bombers in operation in the area


I know you'd probably lob a few gas grenades in a Palestinian school yourself. All for the good fight. :yy:
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
I'd say the same about Israel.

Hence why I said Hamas AND Netanyahu. A posteuring warmongering monster against a bunch of theocratic savages, with the Palestinian people caught in the middle. It's desperately sad.
Original post by tengentoppa
Hence why I said Hamas AND Netanyahu. A posteuring warmongering monster against a bunch of theocratic savages, with the Palestinian people caught in the middle. It's desperately sad.


Oh. My mistake :redface:

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