Deadly gun attack in Paris: Global reactions & discussion

History is quite simply full of oppression and blood letting and perhaps you wilfully forget the part Islam has played in that since it's inception. Islamist terrorism is a huge problem which must be tackled but your musings do not help to extinguish the atrocities of Islamic "Allahu Akbar!" Terrorism, but only seek to find blame in the Western corner.

Itotally agree that there are likely to be things within Islamiccountries and cultures that have contributed to this. But 50 yearsago, there was no Islamic mass-terror against the West. What led tothat? That's my question. We should know, because otherwise we arejust stumbling around in the dark, not addressing the real issue andcontinuing to lose, which is basically what is happening. The extremeradicalised version is winning, not just countries (which it is) butpeople's minds as well.

We could make a list of likely causes.High on it would be the way that Europe and the US got the sort ofgovernments they wanted in Islamic countries and the way thosegovernments have subsequently treated their own people.

Morerecently, we could add into the mix the way the West has responded towaves of anger about this, which has varied between clumsy, dumb andincredibly oppressive.

We could add onto that the latestresponses to the latest outrages.

Clearly we have a hugeproblem on our hands. Either we go down a route of ever-increasingignorance, violence, revenge, more bloodletting and terriblesituations in our own countries, or we try different things. Do wereally want this country, France, etc, to become Bosnia? Because that's plausibly what we are talking about and I don't mean justbecause Muslim youth is angry, resentful and potentially violent,although a part of it clearly is.

Agreed, I'm just calling you out because I feel it's rather needless to go out of one's way to insult and degrade the values that other people hold dear. Given that the vast, vast, vast majority of muslims are peaceful and productive citizens, I don't believe there's anything to gain in going out of my way to insult their prophet.

In many aspects, it is strikingly similar to Egypt, another place where Western-backed governments have brutally suppressed Islamic-minded but originally peaceful movements, or at least, neo-rational movements and turned them, like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, which inspired much of the violence sweeping the Islamic world now.

But 50 yearsago, there was no Islamic mass-terror against the West.

You seem to suggestislams problems are our problems, No – they have become so recently purely because the islamic world has done absolutly zilch to doanything about their mess. What if the west had done nothing aboutthe naziis, would someone else be expected to clear up that mess?


And you cant blame theWest either for the rise of islamisc fundamentalism entirely. Yes they may have past flirted with the idea of supporting them ( which agreed was a mistake) purely as an excersise to piss off thecommunist bloc, but the islamists have had their own agendas as soonas they got they own countires to plot in and a steady stream of oilincome. You are fully aware too that islamist ideology has featuredin the last 30 years in various areas other than simply greivancejust against the West

I'm just telling you whilst muslims hold the 'value' 'not drawing the prophet' dear, other people hold the value freedom of expression dear.

To ask people to respect the former but not the latter is merely asking people to accommodate islamic views.

Nasser? The man who brutally suppressed the Muslim Brotherhood.

Assad pere et fils?



What about 45 years ago? 400 passengers on three airliners hijacked to Jordan.

Or 130 years ago this month? Chinese Gordon murdered on the steps of his own Residency in Khartoum.

The fact that someone has the right of freedom of expression does not mean that they should exercise that right in a manner that is gratuitously offensive to others.

Ofcourse I am aware - much of it rotates around Israel/Palestine andthe way the Palestinians successfully turned their cause into aglobal Islamic cause.

However,I am puzzled what you mean when you say 'the Islamic world' as ifthere is something there that can act. The 'Islamic world' consistsof a large number of dictatorships and a few democracies. Most of thedictatorships (in fact, almost all of them) were installed andmaintained as part of the cold war, primarily by the West but also bythe Soviets in some cases.

Thesehave evolved into completely corrupt client states, that eitherpromulgate extremist Islam to help maintain their aristocratic rulingclass (Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States and Iran) or else engage inbrutal suppression of Muslim Brotherhood-inspired Islamist movementsas part of their service to the West (Egypt, Iraq and in the pastTurkey, also Algeria and some others) or to the Soviet version ofthat. (Syria, Iraq) .

Mostof the problems that currently exist go to the complete failure ofthe US to engage Israel determinedly about its treatment ofPalestinians and Palestinian lands and also to the dedication of theWest to maintaining the corrupt dictatorships in the Arab world. Aclassic example is the way in which the US has constantly aided andsecured the ruling elite of Saudi Arabia, even though that country isa bastion of tyranny and brutal religious extremism. No issues ofliberalism there! I am standing by, waiting to hear Obama on thesubject, as he rushed to praise the cause of freedom in France, Ithought he might mention it.

Howcan more rational interpretations of Islam (of which there have beenmany in the past) possibly succeed in countries dominated by evilgovernments backed up to the hilt by our comfortable and indifferentcountries?

Whatever kid, if you haven't grown out of atheism by the age of 20, don't expect to make any meaningful mental progress.

The fact that someone has the right of freedom of expression does not mean that they should exercise that right in a manner that is gratuitously offensive to others.

so, it's a right but it's not a right

correct ?

You seem to suggestislams problems are our problems, No – they have become so recently purely because the islamic world has done absolutly zilch to doanything about their mess. What if the west had done nothing aboutthe naziis, would someone else be expected to clear up that mess?

The fact that someone has the right of freedom of expression does not mean that they should exercise that right in a manner that is gratuitously offensive to others.

We are being sold a French propaganda message - this is all about liberty and equality - vs - medievalism - but it isn't that, at all. It's at least partly about the recent legacy of European colonialism in Africa and the Middle East and at least partly about the French role in it and the refusal of France to address these things.

To interpret this as a simple war between high-minded elite French enlightenment and some sort of medieval pseudo-fascism is utterly to miss the point and to wear willful blinkers to the West's part in having developed the situation.

"Gratuitously offensive" is so wholly subjective that many would have to withdraw their right of freedom of expression in order to avoid offending others.

so, it's a right but it's not a right

correct ?

I dont believe, and i cant see where in fullofsuprises contribution, it states that her opinion, is of that nature. Unless ofcourse, you are willing to highlight it for us all to see. Until then however, please do refrain from telling me how i should feel.

please, do enlighten us about your meaningful mental progress

I'm just telling you whilst muslims hold the 'value' 'not drawing the prophet' dear, other people hold the value freedom of expression dear.

To ask people to respect the former but not the latter is merely asking people to accommodate islamic views.