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In libraries, do they put the bible in the fiction or non-fiction section?

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Original post by SiminaM
Wtf? I am a girl...


Mrs. Dawkins then :smile:
Original post by Veggiechic6
Paedophiles have the belief that it's ok to go around maiming small children. Should we tolerate and not look down on or ridicule their belief?


Do you actually believe that intolerance exists? No. And neither does free speech. Why are people who advocate free speech soooo butthurt when someone says something racist or say homophobic ( not that I encourage any of them), that is exactly the same reason people who are religious get offended when you say something against their religion.
I'm not saying I'm not for free speech but I'm just saying that if you are for it then you should accept all kinds of free speech.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by h3isenberg
Are you seriously equating insulting religion with racism and homophobia?

Yes that is precisely what I'm doing. What gives you the right to criticise others beliefs? It's only when religion turns into terrorism that you can criticise or when religion is forced upon someone you can oppose. Please don't tell me you're under the delusional that freedom of speech actually exists.
Original post by thefatduckTEEHEE
Yes that is precisely what I'm doing. What gives you the right to criticise others beliefs? It's only when religion turns into terrorism that you can criticise or when religion is forced upon someone you can oppose. Please don't tell me you're under the delusional that freedom of speech actually exists.


Hate to state the obvious but you can't change your race or your sexuality, you can change your religion. Racism and homophobia is attacking a living breathing individual. Religions are merely ideologies, which are systems of ideas. They are not people. Religious ideologies deserve no special treatment over any political ideology, why should they?

Especially when they are systems of bad ideas, criticise them away.
Original post by thefatduckTEEHEE
Yes that is precisely what I'm doing. What gives you the right to criticise others beliefs? It's only when religion turns into terrorism that you can criticise or when religion is forced upon someone you can oppose. Please don't tell me you're under the delusional that freedom of speech actually exists.
Sounds like you need to go and live in Saudi Arabia. Freedom of speech is never 'absolute' there are obvious boundaries. For example, I can't go around saying 'burn the Jews! Kill them all!' or whatever BS because that's obviously hate speech. But I can say 'I think *insert religion* is a load of BS' because that's my right. That's what millions of people went marching for in France today.
Moved to books, literature and comics :smile:
Original post by h3isenberg
Hate to state the obvious but you can't change your race or your sexuality, you can change your religion. Racism and homophobia is attacking a living breathing individual. Religions are merely ideologies, which are systems of ideas. They are not people. Religious ideologies deserve no special treatment over any political ideology, why should they?

Especially when they are systems of bad ideas, criticise them away.


I absolutely agree. I'm just saying that if a person has the right to criticise another's ideology or belief he is essentially criticising the person himself. I don't believe in religion but that's just my opinion. Why criticise religion when it is not do anything to you? Yes I agree you can do so if you they force their religion upon you, but if
People choose to be ignorant let them. You can't get rid of all the ignorant people in the world.
Original post by Veggiechic6
Sounds like you need to go and live in Saudi Arabia. Freedom of speech is never 'absolute' there are obvious boundaries. For example, I can't go around saying 'burn the Jews! Kill them all!' or whatever BS because that's obviously hate speech. But I can say 'I think *insert religion* is a load of BS' because that's my right. That's what millions of people went marching for in France today.

I have been saying freedom of speech never exists right from the start. If you believe religion is bs then that's your opinion I don't understand why people get butthurt over it. The same reason why you shouldn't get butthurt when someone says they're incest.
Original post by Twinpeaks
No...

Intolerance is an unwilling to accept others beliefs, beliefs that are different to your own. You seem to think it means enforcing your own beliefs on others, or not allowing others to have different beliefs. It is not just that, intolerance is also looking down on/ ridiculing others beliefs, rather than accepting we have our own differences.

Intolerance is saying a belief is stupid. It doesn't require the add on of 'your belief is stupid, so you aren't allowed to have it'.

I also feel I should add that criticising beliefs is a lot different to ridiculing beliefs.


You seem to understand my point of view well. My view is that ideological tolerance is allowing someone to believe what they want, and that is all that is required.

As a result, I do not believe that the parts in bold are examples of intolerance. You can tolerate a belief whilst believing that it is a ridiculous belief, and whilst telling someone that believing it is ridiculous. None of that is inconsistent with their freedom to believe what they want. What you cannot do is to persecute or punish them for believing it - that is intolerance.
Original post by TurboCretin
You seem to understand my point of view well. My view is that ideological tolerance is allowing someone to believe what they want, and that is all that is required.

As a result, I do not believe that the parts in bold are examples of intolerance. You can tolerate a belief whilst believing that it is a ridiculous belief, and whilst telling someone that believing it is ridiculous. None of that is inconsistent with their freedom to believe what they want. What you cannot do is to persecute or punish them for believing it - that is intolerance.
That's right. Allowing people to believe whatever they want whilst not agreeing yourself and speaking out against it if you so wish= tolerance. Trying to control peoples' beliefs by punishing and persecuting them if they demonstrate anything other than what you believe = intolerance. Criticising and ridiculing is not persecution. If people want to know what persecution is, look up Saudi Arabia or the way minorities are currently being treated by IS in Iraq.
Original post by Veggiechic6
Paedophiles have the belief that it's ok to go around maiming small children. Should we tolerate and not look down on or ridicule their belief?




Read the last part of my post. Also, do not liken a belief in God to believing in child sex abuse. It's pathetic, I will not argue with irrational people.
Reply 31
Avatar for Simes
Simes
16
Original post by thefatduckTEEHEE
Honestly am I the only one that thinks religion was just a medium of control earlier on…
a commonly held view. The study of the evolution of the relationship between state and religion throughout history is all about that.

Original post by thefatduckTEEHEE
… but was made for the good of the people…
I wouldn't like to say. Hopefully.

Original post by thefatduckTEEHEE
… but now people of that same religion believe that controlling people is their prime objective…
Sort of. Every institution, over time, changes its purpose such that its goal becomes "preservation of the institution".

When state and religion are intertwined, then yes what you say is accurate. I would give the Western Catholic Church as a classic case.

Original post by thefatduckTEEHEE
… and so they decide to hate on people who don't believe in religion.
Can I change that to "who don't believe in preservation of the institution"? Is that what you meant? Preservation of the religion they use is incidental.

Original post by thefatduckTEEHEE
I don't believe in religion
I believed in God and the church, but started to see - courtesy of the Gospels, that the church is not necessarily good. Then I realised the church is not necessary for me. Then I saw organised religion was just a tool of the state. I then rejected organised religion, and decided to rely on the words of scripture for myself, without interpretation by someone paid to be in charge.

Original post by thefatduckTEEHEE
I am okay with people who do.
Me too, until they preach at me.

Original post by thefatduckTEEHEE
I think god and religion are two different things but maybe that's just me.
No, it is not. There are many, many people who feel that way. The difficulty then is: what is true? What is morally right? What code will you live by? Who will answer those questions for you?

If you make the tough decision, to answer them for yourself, you will have taken the hardest road of all. One requiring a lifetime of self-analysis, doubt, research, comparison, debate. And self-knowledge and fulfilment.

Whether that road leads to God, Buddha, or something else, only you will find out. Perhaps.

But the road is an interesting one. You will meet many strangers, and many unexpected friends, and some bandits, along the way.
Original post by Twinpeaks
Read the last part of my post. Also, do not liken a belief in God to believing in child sex abuse. It's pathetic, I will not argue with irrational people.
You didn't say you were talking about God, you were talking about 'tolerating all beliefs'. I was simply giving an example of a belief that shouldn't be tolerated for obvious reasons. I already addressed the last part of your post by agreeing with a previous poster who commented on it.
Original post by TurboCretin
You seem to understand my point of view well. My view is that ideological tolerance is allowing someone to believe what they want, and that is all that is required.

As a result, I do not believe that the parts in bold are examples of intolerance. You can tolerate a belief whilst believing that it is a ridiculous belief, and whilst telling someone that believing it is ridiculous. None of that is inconsistent with their freedom to believe what they want. What you cannot do is to persecute or punish them for believing it - that is intolerance.




I think intolerance extends to ridiculing/ belittling of others beliefs. You think intolerance is more just persecution or punishment of others due to their beliefs. That's the difference, my definition is broader.

I welcome a critical an open mind. It's good to look into a religion and say I disagree with X and give your reasons. But I think just calling a belief 'stupid' just because it is very different to yours, is intolerant. I don't see what the motive is, what does the person have in mind by saying that, other than to put someone else down. It's not productive, it's not welcoming a debate. It just reminds me of a child stubbornly folding their arms and saying 'no, no, it's stupid!', before sticking their finger in their ears.
Reply 34
Avatar for Simes
Simes
16
In libraries, do they put the bible in the fiction or non-fiction section?

Original post by The_Internet
Moved to books, literature and comics :smile:
:rofl: It's a good job I went to the loo before reading that or I would have wet myself!
Original post by Veggiechic6
You weren't talking about God, you were talking about 'tolerating all beliefs'. I was simply giving an example of a belief that shouldn't be tolerated for obvious reasons. I already addressed the last part of your post by agreeing with a previous poster who commented on it.



... I don't see how pedophilia or agreeing with pedophillia is a belief...



Also, I must have overestimated some of the people on here. I thought I could make a post and it would be met reasonably. It seems natural to me that the word tolerance centres around beliefs that are within reason, worthy of being tolerated. As in they aren't extreme minority beliefs that lie outside of what social norms dictate acceptable, such as believing in a cult that involves ritual killing as part of worship.
Original post by Twinpeaks
... I don't see how pedophilia or agreeing with pedophillia is a belief...



Also, I must have overestimated some of the people on here. I thought I could make a post and it would be met reasonably. It seems natural to me that the word tolerance centres around beliefs that are within reason, worthy of being tolerated. As in they aren't extreme minority beliefs that lie outside of what social norms dictate acceptable, such as believing in a cult that involves ritual killing as part of worship.
I deliberately used an extreme example because I thought your post about the definition of intolerance was equally stupid. UH OH! I used the 'S' word! :biggrin:
Original post by Veggiechic6
I deliberately used an extreme example because I thought your post about the definition of intolerance was equally stupid. UH OH! I used the 'S' word! :biggrin:



I must be arguing with a child.
Original post by Twinpeaks
I must be arguing with a child.
Yet you're still here replying to me :biggrin:
Original post by Twinpeaks
I think intolerance extends to ridiculing/ belittling of others beliefs. You think intolerance is more just persecution or punishment of others due to their beliefs. That's the difference, my definition is broader.

I welcome a critical an open mind. It's good to look into a religion and say I disagree with X and give your reasons. But I think just calling a belief 'stupid' just because it is very different to yours, is intolerant. I don't see what the motive is, what does the person have in mind by saying that, other than to put someone else down. It's not productive, it's not welcoming a debate. It just reminds me of a child stubbornly folding their arms and saying 'no, no, it's stupid!', before sticking their finger in their ears.


Be that as it may, it's their prerogative. If I follow you down the street yelling that your religion is a pile of crap, then that's harassment - at that point, I would call that intolerance. But if you ask my view and I tell you I think religious belief is ridiculous, that's just me expressing an honest view. Just as you have freedom to practice your religion, I have freedom to express my views.

We are probably not going to agree on this, because as you say we just seem to have different ideas of what it is to be intolerant. As far as I'm concerned, you can dislike something, disagree with it, even hate it, and profess to do so, but still tolerate its existence. I guess you think differently, and I think you're wrong, but you're entitled to your view!
(edited 9 years ago)

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