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People who think mocking Muhammad should be outlawed

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Original post by JamesNeedHelp2
Do you believe that freedom of expression should have no limit? im quite interested by your future answer to this question.


I believe in freedom of expression within the law, which means that you cannot make threats to kill or slander someone. However, I would never support generally making offence illegal as it is far too subjective, and would cover everything from the Charlie Hebdo images to the Qur'an itself.
Original post by Lady Comstock
Then, by this logic, the Qur'an and the Bible should also be banned due to their content which is likely to offend.



Satirising an ideology is in no way "racist". You would have been better to refer to our religious incitement laws, but these are incredibly narrow and would be highly unlikely to apply.



Probably because it's one thing to sit in your office, draw an image of Muhammad and publish it on your website, for which people have to actually navigate to to find it, and another thing to go out in the street and harass people with racist language. Your analogy is flawed, and I ask you again: should people be banned from publishing the Qur'an and the Bible, because that is where your logic extends?

In addition, it is foolish to measure offence by reaction - an entirely subjective and relative thing. A Muslim who doesn't really care about religion much may be indifferent to an image of Muhammad, but a gay rights campaigner may be absolutely outraged, and deeply offended, by passages in the Qur'an and the Bible. Under your logic, the latter is somehow more credible.



People keep doing it to show that they will not relinquish their right to free expression in the face of violence from fascists.



You don't need a reason for free expression. Regardless, many satirise Muhammad because he is held up as perfect figure, and they disagree with that notion. Others continue to draw Muhammad to protest against censorship.



The usual disclaimer, despite an underlying tone of victim-blaming going on in the post.



Again, satirising an ideology is not racist.


Yes, i do think people should be banned from drawing the prophet. Not only do i think that it should be banned, but i also think that it should be outlawed in every democratic country. Which is inherently, the same thing as banning it.
Original post by Veggiechic6
Don't count on it. I think we're already on a slippery slope, lets see what happens as time goes on.


How are we on a slippery slope? This shooting has not eroded or compromised freedom of expression...
Original post by JamesNeedHelp2
Yes, i do think people should be banned from drawing the prophet. Not only do i think that it should be banned, but i also think that it should be outlawed in every democratic country. Which is inherently, the same thing as banning it.


Then that logic dictates that publishing the Qur'an and the Bible must also be banned. Would you be happy with that?
(edited 9 years ago)
You will never be able to ban the satire. Under facist governments there are always underground magazines, and with the internet well..

Charlatans and cult leaders deserve to have their 'rules' mocked
Original post by Zamestaneh
Any normal decent person would not try to purposefully annoy people; it's within people's rights to say bad things but tbh only dicks exercise that right in such a way.


But that's essentially a contradiction in terms, and to call all people who use satire "dicks" is hardly true. Besides, satire usually isn't just mindless insulting, it's mockery which is done intelligently and contains messages and critiques of people and society.
Original post by william walker
I am sure you have heard the slippery slop argument.


There is no chain effect in my argument; one thing does not lead to another. I merely stated that you are misconstruing the truth by stating that there are only 2 outcomes. Hence, my use of the term false dichotomy.
Original post by RosyPearl
There's double standards in the west. Mocking the prophet comes under freedom of expression but if Charlie Hebdo was to mock the holocaust, I doubt people would cry "je suis Charlie", so freedom of expression applies only when it suits certain people. France is not a tolerant country, some people can't even practise their faith in public because they are fined or arrested but mocking and insulting their beliefs isn't outlawed, freedom of expression, belief and religion should apply to all.


Charlie Hebdo has already done cartoons on the Holocaust...
Original post by JamesNeedHelp2
Do you believe that freedom of expression should have no limit? im quite interested by your future answer to this question.


Freedom of speech is already limited, it has never meant total and unbridled freedom.
Original post by Lady Comstock
I believe in freedom of expression within the law, which means that you cannot make threats to kill or slander someone. However, I would never support generally making offence illegal as it is far too subjective, and would cover everything from the Charlie Hebdo images to the Qur'an itself.


I disagree. I think freedom of expression should come with responsibility. If we consult the realm of the world, that is reality, anything but responsible and mature use of this right, that you regard so highly, leads to terror and generally deaths that could be prevented. The charlie hebdo incident, is my observable evidence, and the number of deaths is my quantative evidence.

You may argue, that the term responsibility is subjective, i mean how would we know what is responsible and what isnt? But i believe it is possible to find guidelines that addresses this subjectivity.

Why do you disagree with this?
Original post by JamesNeedHelp2
There is no chain effect in my argument; one thing does not lead to another. I merely stated that you are misconstruing the truth by stating that there are only 2 outcomes. Hence, my use of the term false dichotomy.


You have two outcome though. Freedom or not. You don't have levels of freedom unless you seek tyranny.
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
Freedom of speech is already limited, it has never meant total and unbridled freedom.


That is very interesting. People on this thread, however respectable they may be, seem to think that it does not have any limit and should not.
Original post by william walker
You have two outcome though. Freedom or not. You don't have levels of freedom unless you seek tyranny.


That is a very simplistic argument, and simply not true.
Original post by JamesNeedHelp2
That is very interesting. People on this thread, however respectable they may be, seem to think that it does not have any limit and should not.


Really? Those who think that must have grossly unrealistic views of freedom of expression, otherwise inciting violence and calling out for the murder of people on the street would be legal...
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
How are we on a slippery slope? This shooting has not eroded or compromised freedom of expression...
I wasn't talking specifically about the shooting, I was addressing your assertion that we will always have free speech. If you look back in time, words and actions that were perfectly acceptable are now labelled sexist/racist/islamophobic. I'm not saying if this was a good or bad thing, I'm pointing out that there is restriction where there previously wasn't. If the islamist attacks continue and get worse as time goes on, I strongly suspect free speech will subtly become less and less free. You just watch.
Original post by JamesNeedHelp2
That is a very simplistic argument, and simply not true.


It isn't an argument, it is a statement of fact. Freedom is a high bar and if you can't reach it you don't have freedom.
Original post by Veggiechic6
I wasn't talking specifically about the shooting, I was addressing your assertion that we will always have free speech. If you look back in time, words and actions that were perfectly acceptable are now labelled sexist/racist/islamophobic. I'm not saying if this was a good or bad thing, I'm pointing out that there is restriction where there previously wasn't. If the islamist attacks continue and get worse as time goes on, I strongly suspect free speech will subtly become less and less free. You just watch.


Ahh OK, that's your opinion, but I respectfully disagree. In the case of this shooting, all it's done is make more people exercise the right to draw Muhammed and cause more editions of the newspaper to be published. It just seems unrealistic, in the West at least, to say that freedom of speech will gradually disappear, as of yet there's no real indication that will happen. Moreover, freedom of speech has never meant absolute freedom.
I don't think the argument is merely on offensiveness, but that people genuinely believe, for whatever reason, anything that concerns (their) religion should be put against an entirely set of standards.

Not allowed to draw the prophet comes from a religion, but loving gays does not (not from their religion, could be from other equally legitimate religions they don't personally recognise). That's the difference for them.

Which is why some are asking for offence against religions to be outlawed, not (just) offensive comments or insults.
Original post by william walker
It isn't an argument, it is a statement of fact. Freedom is a high bar and if you can't reach it you don't have freedom.


oh it is a fact now? where is your factual evidence that there are only two outcomes to freedom of speech and the question regarding the combination of possibilities possible?

Stop being deluded.
Original post by JamesNeedHelp2
That is very interesting. People on this thread, however respectable they may be, seem to think that it does not have any limit and should not.


The received western opinion (and the state of UK law) on freedom of expression is that you can say what you like about what you like as long as you don't incite someone to commit a crime, don't slander or libel someone (and that is a civil offence, not criminal), don't incite hatred, don't do something that can obviously cause serious harm like shouting "Fire!" in a crowd when there isn't a fire.

People in this thread are arguing for freedom of expression within the law, not unbridled freedom of expression.

Almost all people who disagree with this stance are religious people and their supporters who don't wish to see their beliefs challenged. Many of them are quite happy to give offence to those who disagree with their views, as you did yesterday, and don't seem to understand the irony of their stance.

The vast majority of people see considerable value in challenging those in authority (within the law), political views and religions. Sure, it results in people being offended or challenged but that is a small price to pay for open debate.

Not all countries have such laws, though. If you don't like them there are many that would give you asylum from the oppression you might feel from this situation.
(edited 9 years ago)

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