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Pope Francis: Free expression doesn't mean right to insult others' faith

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Original post by EllieC130
I've said it once and I'll say it again- feel free to question other people's beliefs but don't treat the people liks their stupid for believing it.


It was speaking of religion in hushed tones of reverence that allowed it to flourish for so long. I'm sorry, I'm not going to pretend that believing something without evidence is the mark of high intellect.

The ridicule of ridiculous beliefs is often what leads to their being discarded. I reserve my right to hold these beliefs up to ridicule
Fancy that, the Pope would turn the lights out on anyone dissing his mother! Can't imagine the Dalai Lama saying that...
Original post by IC3DOutStunn4
In what way exactly is the opinion ridiculous?


It's ridiculous because it holds religion beyond criticism, beyond satire, and beyond ridicule. Given religious beliefs are inherently ridiculous, it is the height of arrogance to demand that instead they be treated with tones of hushed reverence.

I'm a Christian but believe that the drawing of muhammed was taking it too far.


Good for you, you've chosen your fellow theists over a rational, humanist worldview. Should I bow?

Also how is religion outdated


You don't think a belief that tells us that humans are inherently sinful because they ate a piece of cursed fruit upon instructions from a talking snake can probably be discarded as a laughable ancient fairy tale?
Original post by young_guns
It's ridiculous because it holds religion beyond criticism, beyond satire, and beyond ridicule. Given religious beliefs are inherently ridiculous, it is the height of arrogance to demand that instead they be treated with tones of hushed reverence.



Good for you, you've chosen your fellow theists over a rational, humanist worldview. Should I bow?



You don't think a belief that tells us that humans are inherently sinful because they ate a piece of cursed fruit upon instructions from a talking snake can probably be discarded as a laughable ancient fairy tale?


So you don't believe there is a superior being to humans?
Those beliefs are ridiculous according to you and its a good thing you're in the minority.
I'm also sure there are far more 'Intellegent & Rational' people than you who are religious.
Original post by IC3DOutStunn4
So you don't believe there is a superior being to humans?


There is zero evidence for that proposition, therefore if I were to commit to believing in it, that would be a decision based on emotion not on facts
Original post by IC3DOutStunn4
So you don't believe there is a superior being to humans?


It's possible to believe that whilst rejecting the notion that there has ever been a human being invested with the power of a spokesman.
Original post by young_guns
There is zero evidence for that proposition, therefore if I were to commit to believing in it, that would be a decision based on emotion not on facts


One man's piece of evidence is another man's, er... lack of it. What would you be prepared to accept as evidence?
Reply 27
Freedom of speech is something that is fundamentally virtuous. This is not, however, equivalent to saying that it should be encouraged in all circumstances. We all have the right to swear at our parents or tell our teacher they are a manic tyrant. Should we do this? Best not.

The answer, though, is not to leave the issue at that. If you have serious issues with your teacher, sit them down and talk. That's the key word here - talk.

Criticism of religion is healthy and, as a Christian, I welcome and encourage it. I respect that you have the right to mock my religion - many people do - though I would much rather civilised discussion rather than inflammatory cartoons.
Original post by zhog
One man's piece of evidence is another man's, er... lack of it. What would you be prepared to accept as evidence?


I would be prepared to accept evidence of this "superior being" being perceived by a direct manner of perception (and that perception was repeatable and empirically supported, rather than conveniently transient). Or if that being could be photographed, or detected on radar, or if it could make any sort of recordable and empirically supportable communication with human beings.

Why don't you tell me what evidence is on offer? Because I'm aware of none that would stand up to the ordinary standards of scientific scrutiny
Nah, I love the Pope but he's wrong on this one. You have the right to insult another's faith but others also have the right to call you a ****-stirring **** for it. Though continually insulting someone's faith for no real reason, or a cynical political purpose, is likely to be hate speech, and rightly so.

Original post by DeLite
"says a swear word against my mother, then a punch awaits him,"


This is possibly the most badass thing a pope has ever said
He's wrong.
Original post by young_guns
I would be prepared to accept evidence of this "superior being" being perceived by a direct manner of perception (and that perception was repeatable and empirically supported, rather than conveniently transient). Or if that being could be photographed, or detected on radar, or if it could make any sort of recordable and empirically supportable communication with human beings.

Why don't you tell me what evidence is on offer? Because I'm aware of none that would stand up to the ordinary standards of scientific scrutiny


If God existed, he wouldn't be much of a god if it was that easy to believe in him, would he? He'd just be a run-of-the-mill alien intelligence.

Douglas Adams
... if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.
Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen it to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets killed on the next zebra crossing.

Religion is meaningless if you want evidence before you'll believe in it, the whole point of religion is making a leap of faith.

Many things are created through leaps of faith, for example currency and the economy. You can choose not to believe in that because none of it is actually real beyond the fact that others believe it is, but don't come crying to me when you starve to death.

God isn't really all that much like currency, a quale like love would be a better example, but it does show empiricism isn't the only game in town.
How about the Holy Father speaks a bit more vocally about the genocide currently being committed by Muslims against his people in the middle east rather than appearing to justify mass murders committed by muslims in Europe?
Original post by IC3DOutStunn4
In what way exactly is the opinion ridiculous? I'm a Christian but believe that the drawing of muhammed was taking it too far. Also how is religion outdated, the only place its declining is Europe. Outside of Europe religion is increasing.


It's ridiculous to think that religious belief should be exempt from mockery and criticism. Of course, ol' Francis has a vested interest in keeping his dark-age doctrine clean.
Completely agree with the Pope on this, I think he's possibly the best thing to happen to the modern Catholic Church. No-one in their right mind will justify the attacks on Charlie Hebdo or any terrorist attacks but the point does still stand, insulting and provoking entire religions is dangerous, not to mention hurtful to a lot of people.

Criticism is healthy to the development of beliefs within Humanity as a whole, creating resentment and hate through provocation is not.
So His Holiness is advocating violence (the punch).

I think he's insulting all other religions by claiming that his is the correct one.
Reply 36
Original post by Hariex
Freedom of speech is something that is fundamentally virtuous. This is not, however, equivalent to saying that it should be encouraged in all circumstances. We all have the right to swear at our parents or tell our teacher they are a manic tyrant. Should we do this? Best not.

The answer, though, is not to leave the issue at that. If you have serious issues with your teacher, sit them down and talk. That's the key word here - talk.

Criticism of religion is healthy and, as a Christian, I welcome and encourage it. I respect that you have the right to mock my religion - many people do - though I would much rather civilised discussion rather than inflammatory cartoons.


This.

Just because you have the right to say something does not mean you should.
Original post by JoeL1994
Completely agree with the Pope on this, I think he's possibly the best thing to happen to the modern Catholic Church. No-one in their right mind will justify the attacks on Charlie Hebdo or any terrorist attacks but the point does still stand, insulting and provoking entire religions is dangerous, not to mention hurtful to a lot of people.

Criticism is healthy to the development of beliefs within Humanity as a whole, creating resentment and hate through provocation is not.



So, we should criticise religions without provoking anyone?

As we have seen, the religious will interpret any form of criticism as provocation.
Original post by #Ridwan
So, we should criticise religions without provoking anyone?

As we have seen, the religious will interpret any form of criticism as provocation.


I think deliberately provoking someone is morally wrong.

I see religious debate as healthy to someone's personal faith, so many people are brought up to believe things that opening their eyes to new ideas or belief systems, whether they take is in or not, is positive.

Having a true and fair analysis of something and criticising it from this doesn't necessarily need to be done in a provoking way.
I agree with him

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