Should universities be more accountable

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Which degree and uni?

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That's very high.

There's no selection in France, so academics give very harsh marks to make a "selection by failure". The dropoute rate in Medecine is about 90%.

Reply 21

El Salvador

Original post by Josb

There's no selection in France, so academics give very harsh marks to make a "selection by failure". The dropoute rate in Medecine is about 90%.

What do you mean by no selection? Literally everybody goes to university?

I don't know what my undergraduate university's (Hong Kong University) dropout rate is. But then Hong Kong as a whole is highly selected with only 15% school-leavers getting into university every year, and HKU does have an acceptance rate of 9%. Nobody dropped out on my course.

Reply 22

Josb

Original post by clh_hilary

What do you mean by no selection? Literally everybody goes to university?

Everybody who passes A-Level, so everybody.

Reply 23

El Salvador

Original post by Josb

Everybody who passes A-Level, so everybody.

Is it free to attend university? How do they choose to accept a certain applicant to a certain course? Do they then rank applicants by their grades?

Have the a-levels got close to 100% pass rates?

Reply 24

Josb

Original post by clh_hilary

Is it free to attend university? How do they choose to accept a certain applicant to a certain course? Do they then rank applicants by their grades?

Have the a-levels got close to 100% pass rates?

Unis are free, and they have to accept everybody. So first years are often packed in huge theatres, then the terrible marks given at exams clear the ranks. In my degree, we were 300 freshers, 150 in 2nd year, 100 in 3rd year; 50 passed their finals and 12 got a merit/distinction.
A-levels (baccalauréat) pass rate is about 90% now.

Reply 25

nulli tertius

Original post by clh_hilary

Is it free to attend university? How do they choose to accept a certain applicant to a certain course? Do they then rank applicants by their grades?

Bear in mind that the elite institutions in France are not (are rather were not) technically universities.

Reply 26

El Salvador

Original post by nulli tertius

Bear in mind that the elite institutions in France are not (are rather were not) technically universities.

I really have no idea. So the best students don't go to universities?

Reply 27

kka25

Original post by RD208

Perhaps students could also be more accountable?

I mean some go guns blazing into first year expecting a breeze, out every night, sleep in till 12, go to a couple lectures a day, sit a few exams. Then the real work starts.

No. At least not at any decent university. Earning a degree is about work, and it should start from day 1.

It's a tactic exam setters use, to make exams difficult. Its to kick folk into gear, tell them there's no sh***ing about on this course. You want a degree, you have to earn it.

Universities accept students because they believe they are capable of earning a degree. It doesn't mean they're going to hand it on a plate for you.

The issue here is not the students, it's the institution that can't provide the support for the students that want to work and learn, institutions that have terrible educators that can't teach and facilities that are just terrible.

I'm aware that there are lazy students and opportunistic students that will game the institution but I don't think this is the spirit of the thread.

The OP mentioned:

Original post by Racoon

I was just reading through 'which courses have the most work' thread. It seems a lot of people are leaving their courses due to failing exams, finding courses are too hard, demanding, lecturers aren't teaching the subjects very well etc etc.

This is one of the things that an institution should be held accountable; people go there to learn and not to hear some human reading something on a wall! Anyone who can read can do that for God's sake.

I'm dismayed when a genuine student says things like I paid so-and-so, so I should be getting a proper education but ended up being told not to expect this as secondary. Well duhh. This student is obviously smart enough to enter the course and is paying truck loads of money for it; the person is within their reasons to be unsatisfied if they didn't get the proper services.

Reply 28

nulli tertius

Original post by clh_hilary

I really have no idea. So the best students don't go to universities?

Exactly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Normale_Sup%C3%A9rieure

The French are reorganising the structure of their higher education because for purely structural reasons they underscore on many international surveys of HE quality.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 29

RD208

Original post by kka25

It comes down to what students expect from university.

There are ranking tables that indicate student satisfaction, and this varies from institution to institution. And it's quite interesting when you look at it, and see that the top universities are not necessarily winning in this department. It's because their courses are difficult.

What do you define as 'proper services'?

Reply 30

nulli tertius

Original post by RD208

Not necessarily.

There are usual suspects for poor student experience and the perception is that this is often to do with academic management and academic services.

Students like prompt feedback. Academics usually struggle to give it. Academic managers: deans, senior tutors etc who are on top of this ensure their university scores highly. Likewise for ensuring that academics keep "open house" at the times they say they will.

A bunch of stroppy librarians/library assistants will reduce student satisfaction scores as will arbitrary and unreasonable library policies. So will facilities management who are unable to make sensible lecture/class room allocations. Students may complain about poor lecture quality but all that may mean is that the softly spoken foreign lecturer is always given the lecture theatre with the acoustics of a swimming pool.

Reply 31

cambio wechsel

Original post by Racoon

[I read of complaints including that] lecturers aren't teaching the subjects very well

lecturers are also variously good at ballroom dancing and archery.

there's a real tension here on TSR. People want that their university be 'prestigious' but want as well that the courses be well delivered. If the universities hired for the second want, the institution would inevitably suffer for the first.

A way about this would perhaps be to hire on parallel teaching track contracts, as is done widely in Scotland and by some - Manchester is one - in England. But I wonder how many student-consumers would be thrilled at it.

Reply 32

Racoon

Original post by RD208

There are, but I've never known anyone who has been asked to take part. I wonder how you get asked to take part in this?

Reply 33

nulli tertius

Original post by Racoon

There are, but I've never known anyone who has been asked to take part. I wonder how you get asked to take part in this?

The official NSS takes place in the third year of undergraduate studies. Universities that care about student satisfaction will be running their own internal feedback from the beginning of the course.

Reply 34

RD208

Original post by Racoon

There are, but I've never known anyone who has been asked to take part. I wonder how you get asked to take part in this?

I think some universities are more pro-active than others when it comes to the student satisfaction surveys, so it might not be the most accurate measure of how much students are enjoying their course.

Reply 35

nulli tertius

Original post by RD208

There is very little evidence of this producing unreliable results.

The real elephant in the room is that it is a survey of third years. All the negative responses are from people who were dissatisfied but nonetheless hung around. Where are the opinions of the failures and the dropouts considered?