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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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Original post by young_guns
And yet its your position that Jewish minority deserves no rights whatsoever? You may claim otherwise but clearly it is if you'd deny them self-determination in the areas in which they were a majority.


See above. We're talking about Dark Age/Medieval events here, no-one was considered to have 'self-determination' at the time.
Original post by anarchism101
It says plenty. A significant change in the criteria of who can be considered a member of a group makes the claim that the group itself is anything more than an invented idea ridiculous.


That's a bizarre comment. Say I have a private members club called the Garrick Club. It is a mens only club. At some point, we vote to allow women into the club. You would say "Aha! That proves it's not actually a club/group".

In fact, the change from patrilineal to matrilineal merely strengthens the cohesiveness of the group by preventing its dissipation, underlining the way that Jews clearly viewed themselves as being a distinct group. Do you deny they are and have been a distinct group?

Already discussed this in my earlier comment regarding the term 'nation'.


What you said was that you were sure it was a mistranslation. I asked you to indicate what Hebrew words you think have been mistranslated.

No, they are largely an arrogant conviction that your interpretation and narrative must be the correct one, and that someone who disputes it must therefore not know about the subject.


I accept that someone can look at the same evidence and come to a different conclusion. What concerns me is that you don't appear to be particularly knowledgeable about the history of the Jewish people / Jewish religion, and so I question whether you are in a position to make assertions about what the Jews are and are not in light of that

No, that did not appear. If you were being intellectually honest rather than trying to look for a chance to say "Gotcha", you'd have realised (or maybe you did, but chose to push ahead with the strawman anyway) I was talking about vernacular languages.


I am being intellectually honest, you are trying to move the goalposts. You said that the Jewish people don't share the normal characteristics of a culture, such a language or literature. I pointed out that they do. If you were being intellectually honest, you would have to concede that your reach exceeded your grasp when you made that claim.

How does the fact that many Jews used a different vernacular detract from their common adherence to a single religious language? Furthermore, many Jews in Central Europe spoke Yiddish, which is a mix of medieval German and Hebrew, underlining their origin and cultural mix.

Which would be a claim I never made.


So do you accept that there is what could be called a corpus of Jewish historical and religious literature that has been produced fairly continuously since they emerged as a group? Do you accept that the Jewish communities of Europe shared a religion and culture with their North African and Middle Eastern brethren? Do you accept that there has not been some absolute or jarring discontinuity that separates ancient Jews from modern Jews?
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by anarchism101
Neither had any rights in a modern sense. Ideas of democratic rights, national self-determination, etc came much, much later.


It's unclear what you're getting at.

Do you understand the difference between a nation and a nation-state? Do you understand the difference between the ancient Jewish conception of themselves as a nation, and Zionism?

That is really fundamental here.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by anarchism101
See above. We're talking about Dark Age/Medieval events here, no-one was considered to have 'self-determination' at the time.


The fact self-determination had not been conceived in the dark ages doesn't mean the descendents of Dark Age Jews have no right to it

You accepted that a Jewish minority remained in Palestine. That minority was never entirely expelled, and once you get to 1948, in certain areas of Palestine there is a Jewish majority.

Those areas were assigned to Israel. Why do you deny those Jewish majority areas in 1948 the right to self-determination?
Original post by anarchism101
People of the Jewish faith


Do you believe that there is such a thing today as a Jewish culture? Do you believe there are cultural and social bonds between Jewish communities, shared linguistic and religious customs, and a concept of the Jewish people as a distinct entity?

I'm not asking you whether you believe it's a modern invention, I'm simply asking whether you believe it exists now.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by anarchism101
X


I'm going to tell you something, and I think this is quite important to understand if you are going to debate on the subject of the Middle East and Israel/Palestine, on Judaism and Jewishness.

A crucial distinction, perhaps the crucial distinction, between Islam/Christianity, and Judaism, is the nature of their conception of revelation. In Islam and Christianity, they believe the primary revelation of Yahweh/Allah was through a person, Muhammed in the first case and Jesus in the second.

Judaism, by contrast, believes the revelation of god was to the entire Israelite nation, in the form of the stone tablets at Mount Sinai and through a unique covenant. Jewish religion and culture also has a strong focus on the Hebrew exodus from Egypt, their wandering in the desert, and how as a nation they adopted monotheism and rejected idolatry/paganism once and for all.

Now, whether the stories about the exodus, the tablets and ten commandments and so on, are true or not (I tend to believe not) is completely irrelevant. This is how the Jewish people have perceived themselves ever since they lived in Israel; they conceived themselves as being a unique nation due to gods revelation to them as a nation, and his unique covenant with the Israelites (as opposed to, say, the Moabites or Amalekites)

Now, you might not accept that the Jews should have a nation-state, but that is a completely different proposition from your rather strange claims that the Jews did not view themselves as a distinct ethnic/cultural group (i.e. a nation) before Zionism. That simply betrays a stark lack of knowledge about Jewish history, culture and religion
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by infexiz
You're VERY ignorant you haven't realised the situation. America and many more other European countries are supplying israel with all the necessary destructive weapons they need to wipe and steal Palestine's land steal it. These israeli soliders are CRIMINALS, they wouldn't hesitated once to kill a small child. I've watched leaked videos of these mass murderers. Do you really think the AMOUNT of innocent people the israelis have killed will be published as public statistics? You must be stupid... what you see and read in the media is just 1/30 of how many they've killed. It's funny how Palestine isn't classed as a country now and isn't displayed in 'Google Maps' yet Israel isn't an official country and it never existed as an official country. It's a country that stole Palestine's country and claimed it's their land. Pure thieves. Check for yourself. I guarantee Google are supplying Israel at this very moment too.


Who is this aimed at?
Another savage terrorist attack by the 'palestinian' terrorist entity.

A Palestinian man from the West Bank stabbed several people Wednesday morning, in a suspected terror attack on the 40 bus line in central Tel Aviv.

At least four of the victims – including the bus driver – were listed in serious condition, while three others suffered moderate injuries and two were lightly hurt. Several more people suffered shock, according to Magen David Adom paramedics.

Blood was splattered intermittently along a few hundred meters of the crime scene, from where the attack first began, to where the victims lay waiting for paramedics on the sidewalks and in the surrounding parking lots.



Only an hour after it ended, Palestinian media was already praising the Tel Aviv bus stabbing that injured nine with cheerful cartoons. Palestinian media rejoiced Wednesday over the gruesome Tel Aviv stabbing attack with a series of celebratory cartoons.

The first cartoon, drawn by cartoonist Bahaa Yaseen, was posted within the first 90 minutes following the attack. It shows a smiling terrorist holding a bloody knife and praising the attack, which at the time was reported to have injured 10 people. The figure stands in front of a sign that reads "Occupied Tel-A-rabia," a play on the words Tel Aviv. On the bus is the number of the bus line on which the attack took place and a Jewish star. Blood pours out of the doors and onto the street.



And in case people are wondering, these cartoons and incitement to kill are shown daily on mainstream 'palestinian' media and the official pages of 'palestinian' government websites/facebooks etc.

They even aired a tutorial on how to stab.








To think the 'palestinians' were burning the French flag and threatening to bomb France because of the "offensive Mohammed cartoons".

Yet they and the rest of Arabia post crap like this day in and day out.
Fake

Posted from TSR Mobile
Despite the fact the area they call Palestine is run by terrorists, I do have reservations about this story until someone posts the source.
Please don't believe everything u hear guys. Coz if u want the truth u won't be bad mouthing Palestinians.
This story came from the Jerusalem Post …

Original post by LockheedSpooky
And in case people are wondering, these cartoons and incitement to kill are shown daily on mainstream 'palestinian' media and the official pages of 'palestinian' government websites/facebooks etc.

… which also says

Both of the cartoons were eventually removed from Twitter and FaceBook.
I'm not sure Twitter and Facebook necessarily count as "mainstream 'palestinian' media and the official pages of 'palestinian' government websites/facebooks etc."
Original post by Simes
This story came from the Jerusalem Post …


… which also says

I'm not sure Twitter and Facebook necessarily count as "mainstream 'palestinian' media and the official pages of 'palestinian' government websites/facebooks etc."


The man who ran over and killed a mother and her baby was honored on the official 'palestinian' authority facebook page.


i.e it's not just a 'fan' page but the official government page.
Original post by Genocidal
Despite the fact the area they call Palestine is run by terrorists, I do have reservations about this story until someone posts the source.


Yeah, it's not as if they have a history of going out into the streets to celebrate murdering civilians. :rolleyes:


After they killed the Fogel family and decapitated a 3 month old Israeli baby, they were in the streets celebrating.


Perhaps you'd be interested in this thread where your precious 'palestinians' threaten to bomb France.

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3088765
Original post by LockheedSpooky
The man who ran over and killed a mother and her baby was honored on the official 'palestinian' authority facebook page.


i.e it's not just a 'fan' page but the official government page.
Link?
Original post by Simes
Link?


Why are you acting all surprised like you've never heard of this?

Oh, that's right. The BBC and European media never show it.

Anyway, I can't find the news link to the Jerusalem attack. There have been a spate of attacks and I don't know what to google in order to get that story.

He ran over and killed four people including a mother and child. His was described as a "martyr" and honored on the official facebook page of the 'palestinian' government who also posted cartoons mocking the spate of car attacks on Israelis.


http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/12/31/palestinian-media-glorifies-synagogue-attack-terrorists/


Oh and this was the 'palestinians' in Jordan after the Synagogue attack.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/jerusalem-synagogue-attack-jordans-parliament-holds-moment-silence-palestinian-killers-1475721


Commemorating a terrorist who killed 37 civilians including 12 children

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/03/20/palestinian-authority-and-fatah-glorify-terrorist-attack-that-killed-37-israelis/

The cartoons





Original post by LockheedSpooky
Anyway, I can't find the news link to the Jerusalem attack.
Meh.

Original post by LockheedSpooky
The cartoons
Cartoons. Meh.
Original post by Simes
Meh.


If you are seriously claiming the Palestinians don't lionise terrorists, you clearly know nothing about their culture

Activists from terrorist groups regularly hand out candy after the murder of Jews. After the synagogue shooting, there was dancing in the streets and handing out of sweets

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/11/18/photos-palestinians-celebrate-hand-out-candy-after-synagogue-terror-attack/

Whether you like it or not, those are AP photos with AP captions.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by LockheedSpooky
Why are you acting all surprised like you've never heard of this?


Thanks for posting this. People on the "pro-Palestine" side (ironic, because these people almost always advocate that which leads to death and misery for Palestinians... it's almost like they don't actually care about the Palestinians and this is more about gratifying some urge they have) are so ludicrously biased that they cannot admit that straightforward and obvious things you raise... it would cause unbearable cognitive dissonance

This is a good example; Palestinians dancing in the streets and PFLP officials handing out sweets after four Jewish clerics are butchered with meat cleavers and axes

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/11/18/photos-palestinians-celebrate-hand-out-candy-after-synagogue-terror-attack/

You would have to be particularly bloodthirsty to do something like that. Verging on psychopathic
(edited 9 years ago)

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